(no subject)

[frelling_tralk]

So I've been seeing this video several times on my flist and I'm trying to work out my thoughts on it

The video in question


I haven't had all that much exposure to Supernatural cons, so I'm wondering if there's some context that I'm missing, but I actually felt like it was a real overreaction the way that everyone tried to shut that fan down

This post has the person who asked the question explaining what happened This is the full question that she wanted to ask:

I’ve loved seeing Dean’s character become more comfortable with himself this season. As a bisexual, I’ve noticed some possible subtext, as seen in Everybody Hates Hitler, that Dean might be coming to accept himself as something other than straight too? I know you’ve said you know Dean better than anyone, so, in your professional opinion, as the preeminent scholar on Dean Winchester, if you see that as a valid interpretation of what’s going on with the character this season.

She then notes that Now here is what happened when I attempted to ask this question. I got as far as the word “bisexual” before the crowd groaned. I proceeded to hold my hand up in a ‘please just wait a second and let me finish’ way and then got as far as the word subtext before the crowd was full on booing and starting to shout a couple things I couldn’t make out. This is when Clif stepped out from behind the curtain looking very intimidating. He said, “Are you really going to ask this question?”

The video also shows Jensen saying "really that's the first question" and jokingly saying don't ruin it for everyone (which did seem to be aimed at her, but I'll take her word for it that she felt it was addressed more at the crowd booing her), and finally says that he's going to pretend that he didn't hear the question and let's move on. And supposedly shipping questions were then banned from the con? But the thing is that she wasn't asking a shipping question at all that I could see, and there are several scenes in canon that can be read as Dean being bixsexual. I don't see it as completely invalid fanwank to ask the actors or the writers about it when the writers are putting those scenes in there. I certainly don't think that anyone deserves to be booed for simply asking the question, nor was there any need for fans to get that defensive over someone perceived as making the actors uncomfortable.

I'm kind of torn because I do hate when fans constantly harp on Destial or Wincest to the actors and look to them to validate their ship, just yikes. But this felt like the other extreme to me with an oddly hostile response from the crowd before she had even finished speaking. I don't know if it's just because a lot of the audience are used to those questions from other cons and have a kneejerk response to them by now, or if they thought she was oversharing or what? I think I might be missing some context with what supposedly happened at Misha's panel earlier as well. But still there's a big difference between asking an actor to sign a fan manip or drawing of something REALLY inappropiate (if you know what I mean...), and an audience of fans having complete second-hand embarassment at someone merely asking "poor Jensen" if the character he plays could be bisexual.

And is a question like that really so inappropriate for a show that all the time teases the audience with quotes like "Cas, last time someone looked at me like that I got laid" and "get out of my ass". It almost seems like it's fine for the writers to joke around with it in a frat-boy kind of a way, but god forbid the audience take any of hints of bisexuality or homosexuality as anything more than something hysterically funny to play around with

Comments

[ellyfanfic.livejournal.com]

I'm a little puzzled by this myself. I admit I haven't watched SPN for a couple of seasons. I was thinking about getting back into it, and after watching an episode the other night I was moved to go Google Dean/Cas, just to see what the status of their relationship was on the show. I came across this quote, supposedly from Misha Collins:

"You know, we know what it is, what’s going on. We don’t talk about it. The actors don’t, Jensen and I don’t. But we’re all perfectly aware of how the relationship is, the writers are completely aware of how it’s being written. It may be unspoken but that doesn’t mean it’s not there or not true."

If they're going to play around with shippers that way, they can expect people to wonder if Dean is perhaps bi, and if he might eventually become more comfortable with that. It seems like a logical question to me. (And I will add that I get really annoyed with shows that tease m/m ships as a sort of joke, a la "The Big Bang.") But perhaps I'm missing context, as it's not my fandom *shrugs*.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I think Misha is kind of a troll heh. Not in a bad way, but he has fun playing around with the fans and there's a sense of it's fine to ask Misha these questions, half the Destial shippers on tumblr seemed convinced that it was going to happen in canon because of quotes from Misha this season :scratches head: Whilst people seem to draw the line when it comes to the other actors

I haven't watched for a while either. Not for lack of caring, just I'm falling behind on so much tv anyway, and I never ended up starting season 8 because everyone was so negative about the brother moments and how Sam was being portrayed as not looking for his brother. But the second half reviews are much happier, so I'm planning to catch up with season 8 soonish, or over the summer at least. I've still been following fandom and the reviews for it though lol, which is kind of odd I suppose :P

Supposedly there was an episode in season 8 with a guy hitting on Dean which suggested that Dean wouldn't be totally opposed by it. I'm just going on heresy for that of course, but definitely I think the later seasons saw the writers responding a lot more to fandom and giving them more subtext to play around with, i.e in Changing Channels it's hard not to see some subtext in Dean's awkward shuffling respondes around "Dr.Sexy". Yet it seems to be a complete faux pas for fans to treat it as anything more than the writers having a wink wink joke with the audience

[ellyfanfic.livejournal.com]

I think you're right, and as I said, I tend to get annoyed by shows that want to treat gay relationships as a joke-- as if they're saying, "sure, we play around with the idea, but obviously it can't actually HAPPEN." Well, why can't it happen? Are they trying to suggest a manly man like Dean could never be interested in another guy, or what? It's fine to answer, "No, Dean is straight," but to act like there's an insult to the actor and character in merely asking the question-- well, I don't like that.

[hils.livejournal.com]

Obviously I wasn't there and I don't know much about it beyond the girls response which I reblogged on Tumblr but I do agree that this seems to have been blown out of proportion.

I also agree that there seems to be a double standard between what the show broadcasts and what we're seemingly now not allowed to talk about.

But, you know, although I do still watch the show I don't really consider myself part of the fandom any more and stuff like this is why.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

To be fair I've never been to a SPN con so I'm missing a lot of context with embarassing and inappropriate questions being asked in the past, so there was probaly a lot of people bracing themselves for more of the same, but still... I could understand an embarassed shuffling from any large crowd to hear a question being asked that included the words bisexual and subtext, but to act like it was SUCH a shocking thing to ask and let's all boo and try to move on as quickly as possible was so strange to me. Especially when the person sounded really nice and tried to say that she wasn't trying to be disrespectful, and well like I said it's not like it's unknown to the show to bring up these things themselves and encourage the fans. They even joked about people slashing the brothers in an episode that aired as part of the canon :shrugs:

[hils.livejournal.com]

I won't deny that people do ask questions and while on a personal level I might find them embarassing I've never had anything I would deem inappropriate. This question certainly wasn't and it sounds like this girl was being judged before she could even finish what she was saying.

[daybreak777.livejournal.com]

I've never watched a single episode of this show. So I don't have a dog in this fight in any way.

It's so hard to comment on one minute of video. Not sure what came before or after. Don't know the fandom. Don't know the general fannish conversation about this show. Have read some RPF and watched vids of this show, but that's it.

I think her question was a fair question. She should have continued asking it. The crowd was rude to her and the con runners and the actors didn't help her out. But if you're going to ask it, ask it.

I think people got very uncomfortable as they do sometimes when it comes to bisexuality and homosexuality. Obviously, there is something in the subtext of the show or fannish conversation that prompted such a response. But whatever, she had a right to ask it whether people are uncomfortable or not. What bothered me most was she was sharing about her sexuality and I think the actors should have respected that and validated that.

It's a tough question. Fair, but hard if you are walking a line on the show and well, don't want to answer it!

Personally, I hate being the first comment or question. If I'm going to ask something difficult, I wait and feel out the crowd and let the people answering get a bit warmed up first. But one doesn't have to do that. That's just my preference.

Not all con runners or actors are particularly graceful. Again, they could have really helped that fan out, but they didn't. It's disappointing. So it's on Tumblr. What are fans of SPN thinking? Thinking the actors were wrong or she was wrong to ask or that it was just a unfortunately incident handled badly?

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I'm not that familiar with tumblr fandom, but what I've seen so far is a mixture of people saying that the actors always get asked questions like that and it's always awkward and unwelcome, so she should have known better. There have also been accusations of Jensen having a homphobic response to the question, so yeah it's kind of mixed from what I can tell. But that's a very small sample of course, because I no more than glance at comments in a post for tumblr (discussions there confuse me!)


What bothered me most was she was sharing about her sexuality and I think the actors should have respected that and validated that.

I was disappointed that neither actor said anything about "c'mon there's no need to boo her guys", but then it's possible that they just had a kneejerk reaction to great, yet another one of those awkward shipping questions. They have taken part in a LOT of cons and,from what I hear, Jensen always shuts down questions about subtext with one slash ship in particular, but people still keep asking about it and some have no sense of boundries, so that probably played into their response as well

[geckoholic]

I think the reaction of the other fans bothers me far more than JA's. :/ Because, hey, rich straight white dude not being a forward-thinker about that stuff? SHOCKING.

[hils.livejournal.com]

Yeah, in the past JA has used 'gay' to mean something negative so I'm not really surprised by his attitude at this point.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Yeah I was shocked that people were so hostile, just the word "subtext" seemed to set people off. And this is from a crowd that, in theory, probably the vast majority of them enjoy the show's subtext themselves. And like I said, I understand second-hand embarassment with a lot of fans who ask questions about certain topics, but at least let her finish asking her question before deciding that bisexual subtext is automatically going to be something that no one wants to hear

[pocochina.livejournal.com]

I don't really understand con etiquette, so there's a lot of context I'm sure I'm missing. But I just feel like the actors and a handful of individual writers end up getting taken to task for the whole universe of fandom feelings about XYZ. And that's such a massive thing that can be tough for me to understand even with written access to all the context, that I kind of can't blame the individuals involved for setting and enforcing whatever boundaries.

But at the same time, when NO HOMO! is the boundary, whether it's based in someone's individual issue or because there's a critical mass of attendees who make it an overwhelming thing to try to talk about, in context of the way SPN-the-narrative has some weird masculinity issues, is...hinky. I'll commit to hinky.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

in context of the way SPN-the-narrative has some weird masculinity issues, is...hinky.

It makes me very uncomfortable for the show to happily play around with subtext and wink at the audience, and then when a real bisexual fan with real feelings wants to talk about it, for the actors and fans to basically respond along the lines of "wow, did she really just go there". The audience responded terribly of course, but I wish too that the actors could have handled it differently then they did. It wouldn't have been a big deal for Jensen to say let her finish the question and to then seriously answer it, instead of backing up the general atmosphere by acting like she was asking the wrong question and let's all just move on and pretend we didn't understand what she was asking. There was something about it all that felt very shaming, especially after the fan had just told the room that she was bisexual, to then get the response she did really sits uneasily with me :/


I kind of can't blame the individuals involved for setting and enforcing whatever boundaries.

But yeah I am torn because I can understand the actors not wanting fans to push too many boundries with them and bring the fandom into it too much, so I am thinking that maybe if that was the first time Jensen had been asked a question along those lines then he would hopefully have answered it fairly, even if just by brushing aside the subtext or whatever. But because there had been inappropriate questions in the past and they are con veterans, then maybe that all played into them being on the alert and "great, I know where this is going" when they heard the word subtext

[electricmonk333.livejournal.com]

Well, apparently this came on the heels of a disastrous Misha panel where, allegedly, the same girl asked a shipping question. I don't know it was the same girl, but Misha has admitted that he feels sexually harassed by some fans. So, when you put together that, along with the ban on questions related to shipping, it's not surprising that fans or the actors might react negatively. Furthermore, why, why when you are aware of this would you kick off the first question of a panel with I am bisexual and follow with subtext of the show when you know the actors are tired of that line of questioning?

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I was curious about what happened at Misha's panel earlier, I've seen a lot of references to something going down there, but I'm not sure what exactly? That would make more sense of the audience seeming to be on the alert as soon as she started to ask the question

[roxymissrose.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this--I wondered what had happened but my ridiculous embarrassment squick wouldn't let me look.

I wonder that folks seem to confuse the RL actors with the fanfic actors. I've always assumed (and I know it’s kind of stereotyping) with JA's background, that he was nowhere near shouting distance of liberal, with all shades of meaning in that word. I've always assumed both of them were politically conservative seeing what part of the States they're from. Certainly, more conservative than fans would wish.

I guess the fan wanted to ask the question that we've all wondered this season but it's probably not ever going to be a good idea to ask it in front of a bunch of gun-shy fangirls, or of people you don’t know. I've been in the audience when someone asks a question that brings a collective gasp from the crowd. The asker is either clueless or very brave....

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

At the risk of making assumptions I will say that I've heard that Jensen's dad is pretty conservative, although I've no idea how true that is, but yeah I've always assumed(rightly or wrongly) that Jensen is most likely a pretty conservative guy too when it comes to some things

[silverusagi]

because I do hate when fans constantly harp on Destial or Wincest to the actors and look to them to validate their ship, just yikes. But this felt like the other extreme to me with an oddly hostile response from the crowd before she had even finished speaking.

I'm sure they get tired of ship questions. Then again, I'm sure they're tired of most questions by now. Lots of questions get repeated over and over and over... But yeah, ship questions that are seeking to somehow 'validate' a ship or a particular view of a character get old fast.

That said, it doesn't seem to be what this question was about. And I do find it horrible the way the crowd itself seemed to turn on the girl. It was a situation that spiraled out of control and was very confusing for everyone. Which of course then led to a bunch of 'JENSEN IS A BASTARD' posts on Tumblr because of all the hearsay going on about him shutting her down, and it doesn't seem to be what happened. If the crowd hadn't reacted the way it had, I doubt there would be any drama at all. In my reading of the situation, they were the catalyst.

It almost seems like it's fine for the writers to joke around with it in a frat-boy kind of a way, but god forbid the audience take any of hints of bisexuality or homosexuality as anything more than something hysterically funny to play around with

Also, this. So much.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if there would still have been a response from Jensen without the mood of the crowd turning or not because honestly from the video I definitely got the vibe that Jensen really wasn't happy with answering that question and was wary of what she was getting at, but then also the atmosphere of the crowd didn't help with making everyone collectively feel that wow this is an uncomfortable question that we should quickly move on from. If anything it was probably Cliff (who was presumedly just acting on orders) that shut the question down more than Jensen or the crowd. At least from what she was later saying on tumblr

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

It almost seems like it's fine for the writers to joke around with it in a frat-boy kind of a way, but god forbid the audience take any of hints of bisexuality or homosexuality as anything more than something hysterically funny to play around with

In one.

Also, Supernatural fandom is repulsive, what's new in life.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Certainly the way that people react sometimes :sighs:

[apeygirl.livejournal.com]

I read about this on Fandom wank, but I think whoever wrote it got a few signals crossed. Thanks for the slightly more balanced write-up. Another tempest in a teapot for SPN fandom. I confess, I've only caught the odd episode, but I plan to watch the whole thing once the show's over and the fandom's nice and calm. SV was enough of a crazy fandom for me (not that I was never crazy). :)

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Eep just checked out the link and the posters there are really harsh! I can understand the point that it's not really funny as such, but I think it qualifies as fandom wank, so I'm not sure why they were jumping all over the person that reported it. She didn't seem all that sure of what actually happened though it's true

And most of SPN fandom seem to be on tumblr these days, as with this incident, so I avoid most of the craziness thankfully!

[apeygirl.livejournal.com]

Also happy belated birthday!

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Thanks! :)