(no subject)

[frelling_tralk]

Regarding the outrage that this interview has caused

http://freemaagyeman.com/news/2007/12/15/russell-t-davies-series-4-finale/

Davies is a touch defensive when he explains that Martha was always going to be second best to Rose. 'That's how we played it, rather than fight it. It would have been an awful moment if the doctor had said. "Oh, you are like a new Rose to me."

I do not understand why people are freaking out from that interview so much. RTD meant it in terms of the next companion was inevitably to be second best in the Doctor's eyes, and umm yeah, I'm not sure what's controversial over simply stating that very true fact of what has already appeared on the show in series 3. The Doctor met Rose after the Time War, the two of them had bonded to an incredible extent, and were then seperated in Doomsday in a way that meant they would never meet again. It didn't matter how wonderful the next companion was, he was always going to have moments of wishing he were still with Rose

There seems to be such shock that Martha is not considered more worthy of the Doctor's respect, when she is a medical student, and Rose is "an uneducated peroxide blonde chav" who works in a shop. Umm he's a Time Lord and way above us anyway, intelligence is not the primary thing that drew the Doctor to humanity. (And his preferring Rose's company to Martha isn't all that new or scandalous, the Third Doctor enjoyed Jo's company, and mourned her loss more than he ever did the more intelligent Liz, right?)

DW fandom has too many snobs. Who cares if Rose has no GCSEs, that doesn't make her any less worthy of going on adventures with the Doctor, it's not like the majority of these adventures requires knowledge of advanced maths! In season 3 the Doctor described Rose as "so very human", so obviously Rose did have what appealed to him in a human to go on adventures with. People keep bringing up how Martha is smarter than Rose, and Rose is just a shop assistant with nothing exceptional about her at all in comparison, but that's missing the point that the Doctor doesn't choose companions based on brain power. If he did, he'd be picking up people who spend the day sat behind computers in offices with their many degrees. (Adam was a genuis, yet even he got dissed back in season 1, with the Doctor making the point that he only takes the best, and you're not it). We're all "stupid apes" in comparison to Time Lords, so that's obviously not what made humans his favourite species, or even what comes in most useful on the experiences that the Doctor takes you on. His main requirment seems to be for the companion to have a sense of wonder, and be ready to get out there and experience all kinds of life.

With Fear Her for example, the Doctor and Rose just clicked, and had a great time together. We see the Doctor missing that connection in The Shakespeares Code (not that his rudeness is excused there). The companion following Rose might have been more book smart, but the Doctor was connecting from the heart, not the brain. No matter how smart and generally awesome Martha was, she would never be Rose to him, and he was always going to miss that.

However, regardless of the Doctor's issues in series 3, Martha is going to be appearing in a spin-off, as well as continue in DW. All of this surely points to the fact that she is meant to be a kick-ass character in her own right, and that RTD does appreciate her. Martha's character didn't need the Doctor to fall in romantic love with her, especially when the audience all know the reason why that didn't happen, and it had nothing to do with Martha's flaws. I mean heck plenty of people did fall for Martha. The guy who snogged her in 42. Tom giving up his life to try and protect Martha. Even Shakespeare flirted with Martha. I personally find it much closer to sexism than anything from RTD when fandom takes the attitude that it doesn't matter whether or not Martha left the series kicking ass, all that really matters is that the Doctor didn't fall in love with her, and that therefore proves that she was never allowed to measure up to Rose. The Doctor falling in love was not needed in order to validate Martha as a companion. In fact, if it weren't for Martha's unrequited love that ultimately caused her to leave, I see no reason why both she and Jack couldn't have carried on travelling with the Doctor and having fun together. In her farewell speech, Martha admits that the Doctor likes her fine, but it's just too painful to have to keep on waiting and hoping, as she saw happen with a friend of hers. She didn't leave because the Doctor treated her poorly, but because she had fallen in romantic love, and it hurt too badly that he didn't feel the same way.


On another note, I don't get this argument that the Doctor treated Martha so terribly. Apparently he never said she was fantastic, he never said thank you for anything, all he did was compare her to Rose. Yet the only times the Doctor brings up Rose around Martha, were in Smith and Jones, and The Shakespeare Code. And an indirect reference in HN with John Smith's journal. Otherwise the people bringing up Rose were Martha, Jack, and the Master. (Gridlock reference was Martha asking if the Doctor had taken Rose there before). Probably the rudest the Doctor was to Martha was early on when he kept saying it would only be one trip, not a full-time companion. That was unappreciative granted. But even then he did go to the trouble of specially luring Martha into the Tardis after being impressed with her in S&J, and he admitted that she was never really just on there for one trip, he just couldn't bring himself to get attached again. For all the comparisons to how Donna was treated so much better in TRB, umm not really. The Doctor went to the trouble of asking them both on the Tardis, he made a bit of an effort to attract Martha in fact, and went back in time to show off. It was once Martha accepted his offer, that he quickly said that she wouldn't be replacing his previous companion, and I see no reason why he wouldn't have said the exact same thing to Donna if she had agreed to travel with him.

I mean how is any of this worth writing RTD protest letters? How is this worth embarrassing yourself by heading a post "Why must Rusty still be alive". People have made icons of their wish fullfillment of RTD's head exploding!!! I don't care if it is meant partly in fun, I think the hate this fandom have for a writer and human being is vile

It's enough to make SV fandom look quite sensible in fact o_0 And I thought I was being extremely angry when SV sunk my ship and I was all "So not buying the DVDs now". Apparently it's cool these days to wish personal harm on the writers as well, and slur their name by calling them a bigot. But if I was RTD, and saw people online discussing fantasies of my being set on fire, I certaintly wouldn't be very inclined to sympathize with their POV, or take much note of their complaints. It's just inviting any lurking members of the production team to see you as the lunatic fringe

Comments

[lasultrix.livejournal.com]

I think the notion of "Martha is always going to be second best" is severely rubbed in the faces of us all, though, by the wholly unnecessary unrequited love. As you said, can't companions be appreciated in different ways?

Rose: RTD tells us there was requited wub.
Martha: Canon unrequited; RTD tells us she's second-best.

Must the Doctor-Companion relationship according to RTD always be interpreted in terms of Who Fancies Who? Even Sarah Jane was reinterpreted as sexual!

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Admittedly I think the character would have worked a lot better without the unrequited love angle. It does seem a bit strange that the production team talk of hard it will be for the audience to accept Rose's replacement, only to introduce the new character as quite similar in a lot of superficial ways. Both being young girls from London, Martha getting the snog in her first episode, the invite mentioning that he travels through time, Martha having a crush. It would probably have been better to have had a really different companion like Donna or Jack for the season following Rose's departure, and then introduced Martha a little later on.

But I don't understand why fandom is acting so much like spoilt children, and calling RTD such hateful names *sighs* I mean maybe if series three really was the end for Martha, but judging by the spoiler pics for TW, her character is shaping up to get even more awesome development soon, and they are far from casting her character aside. Not that I agree that the Doctor did that either. I thought he was much nicer to Martha than fandom generally allows, and Martha's own main issue there was the lack of romantic love, which was really nobodys fault. It just happens that way sometimes

[sum1-different.livejournal.com]

["I think the notion of "Martha is always going to be second best" is severely rubbed in the faces of us all, though, by the wholly unnecessary unrequited love. As you said, can't companions be appreciated in different ways?"]

You've got a point there. The whole unrequited love thing really wasn't necessary and it does lead to too much comparison with Rose that is not favorable to Martha. They should have left out that crap.

[effulgentnida.livejournal.com]

I think that article was just poorly written, It didn't say anything like "In the Doctor's eyes she seemed second best, because he was missing Rose" it seemed like Russell was saying she'd never be as good as Rose, the journalist who wrote the article took what he said out of context and added the "second best" part herself, we know Russell is straight for Rose, but It's obvious he loves Martha too, I don't think he'd actually come out and say "oh Rose? so much better than Martha!" and alienate fans like that or do that to Freema. I don't blame the fans or Rusty, like I said the article was poorly written, the writer made it seem like that was what he meant, which I don't think he did, come on this is the Daily Mail, didn't they also say that The Doctor's son was going to take over? (Or was that the sun?) and now they’re saying that the Pompeii episode is one of the “harem” episodes? They’re not exactly reliable, I’m sure Russell read the article and head desked *loves the Rustybucket*

[grlmonday.livejournal.com]

I can't speak for anyone but myself here, and I'm not contesting you--My 2cents is this: I like Martha more than Rose for two primary reasons. 1-I think Freema is the better actress. 2-Rose always peeved me with her treatment of Mickey. She was supposed to have been his girlfriend, and yet she'd flirt/be with any guy who took her fancy. I just saw Rose as amoral in that way, and I'm sure not many others saw Rose that way. Plus...Rose just bugged me. So my preference of Martha over Rose isn't out of snobbery, or belief that she's better than Rose because she's more clever, it's because of the characters themselves.

Personally, I never thought Martha should replace Rose in the Doctor's heart, but she should have more respect from him than what she got. There were times during the third season that I felt he dissed her and her feelings too harshly, putting her into situations that showed he had a total disregard for what Martha would have to go through in regards to her feelings for him. I never thought he was obligated to return Martha's feelings, but he certainly could have shown more respect for them at times. Hopefully that won't be the case this season, but honestly--I fear that when Rose comes back, Martha (and Donna too, most likely) will suffer some serious neglect and be given a 'place' behind Rose that I'll most likely see as unfair and unwarranted. Thanks for letting me share my opinions.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

So my preference of Martha over Rose isn't out of snobbery, or belief that she's better than Rose because she's more clever, it's because of the characters themselves.

Oh yeah I totally get that, sorry if it sounded like I always associate Rose dislike with snobbery! I think all of the character hate in this fandom has just been getting me down lately. If it's not Rose being attacked, it's Donna *sighs* And so many people seem to be hung up on why the Doctor would love Rose when she's "only a shopgirl" and it's just really making me mad. As if those who work retail are somehow less worthwhile people for the Doctor to fall for. If we're looking at it that way, then both Rose and Martha are way too dumb to catch the Doctor's eyes, considering that he's an ancient Time Lord!


There were times during the third season that I felt he dissed her and her feelings too harshly, putting her into situations that showed he had a total disregard for what Martha would have to go through in regards to her feelings for him.

Which moments stood out to you in that respect then? Idk, I thought that the Doctor was fine with Martha in S&J, he made one comment at the end about "not that you're replacing her", and in TSC he said that Rose would know what to do, but Martha is too new. And from that, fandom seemed to blow it up into the Doctor constantly bringing up Rose to put down Martha, and I guess I'm not seeing it. There was lots of hugging, "Martha Jones you are a star" etc, so I didn't think that the Doctor was as horrible to Martha as fandom talks about to be honest. I thought he was a far better friend than he would have been boyfriend, I mean look at how Rose got treated in TGITF *g*


Thanks for letting me share my opinions.

No worries, thanks for commenting :)

[duskwillow.livejournal.com]

I think "second best" was a poor choice of words by Rusty. He's saying that Rose was more special to Doctor than Martha got to be, because they were closer. And you explained everything that played into that.
I don't think Martha's intelligence has anything to do with that whole story. He lost everything, met Rose, then lost her too. He was still grieving when he met Martha, it could have been anyone and the end result wouldn't have been any better.

Probably the rudest the Doctor was to Martha was early on when he kept saying it would only be one trip, not a full-time companion.
One could argue that he didn't want to go thought the whole "get close and lose them again" thing again so soon?
But while I was annoyed with his blindness at first, and how he kept saying the wrong thing often I can't blame him too much because he just doesn't function like us, he doesn't "get it".
For me the rudest thing he did was in Sound of the Drums when they were turning those TARDIS keys into perception filter things and he said something like "Oh I know - it's like when you fancy someone and they don't know you exist!" First I though "OMB how can he still be so blind!", but in Last of the Timelord he knew why she was leaving him, so I figured he realized some time ago, and that makes his previous comment in SoD kinda cruel.

Than again I'm so sick of ships tainting Doctor Who. I'm glad Martha left to get over him and get on with her life. And I hope we won't see anything too shippy on Doctor Who again, when it comes to him. Little stuff like Girl in the Fireplace, or Smith/Joan arc I don't mind. But no series long romances please.
Shippers ruin pretty much every fandom, so I'm staying away from Doctor Who one, I got too annoyed.

And all this from someone who likes Martha just a bit more than Rose. ;)

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I can't blame him too much because he just doesn't function like us, he doesn't "get it".

:nods: Judging by how he was with Rose and Sarah-Jane in SR, or Rose and Reniette in TGITF ("wish me luck!"), the Doctor really isn't the most emotionally sensitive of people. I'm not sure if he ever quite got how intense Martha and Jack's feelings for him were. And if it's the Doctor being insensitive that bothers people with Martha, then truthfully his treatment of Rose wasn't all that different early on. In WW3 he was telling Rose that he's not joining her mother for the dinner she had prepared for him, we're leaving right now or you can stay behind. That's the Doctor for you I guess

For all the focus on Martha, I thought he was much crueller to Jack in series 3 actually, and poor Jack proved much more willing to be emotionally dumped on, than Martha ever was


And I hope we won't see anything too shippy on Doctor Who again, when it comes to him

Oh I don't know, I'd still be up for some canon Doctor/Master *g*

[bagheera-san.livejournal.com]

I *definitely* prefer Martha to Rose. Rose is actually one of my least favourite companions so far (of those I've seen), like Peri or Nyssa. I like her Mom, and Mickey and that she's working class, but I don't like Rose herself. Maybe I like Martha so much precisely because she is openly jealous of Rose? But I'd never hate Billie Piper or the writers - I think SV has thoughended me up quite a bit *gg* The Who complainers haven't had to live with Lana for seven seasons!

I wish, however, that Who toned down the love-angle. Martha would have been awesome as a *friend* to the Doctor, and not a potential love interest. I guess I'm with those fans who'd like to see the Doctor as asexual, or sexual only with Time Lords/higher species. And in that vein, I don't think the Doctor treated Martha badly by overlooking her attraction - what I find odd is his special treatment of Rose in comparison to all other companions, but on the other hand, she is probably the first person he opened up to after the Time War.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Oh I actually prefer Martha too believe it or not *g* At least to series 2 Rose anyway. I guess I just spend more time defending Rose because I see her getting bashed so much more often in this fandom. People say that Martha gets bashed a lot too, but I certaintly haven't seen it going on to the same extent, unless it's at the D/R shippy comms maybe, which I don't really visit any more. At the general comms it's always Rose and Donna that come off the worst for character hate

And in that vein, I don't think the Doctor treated Martha badly by overlooking her attraction - what I find odd is his special treatment of Rose in comparison to all other companions, but on the other hand, she is probably the first person he opened up to after the Time War.

But then for all the "he'd never treat Rose like that" you hear, he pretty much did in more than one episode, and has never been emotionally asute. Early on he was yelling at Rose in The Unquiet Dead about either get used to this new way of doing things, or you can go home. Not to mention bringing Rose to the day that her father died (twice in fact!), and then yelling at her for being a "stupid ape" for trying to save him, when what did he think was likely to happen? It's not like he even explained about the actual risks beforehand, just said we can only look at the moment of his death. Acting on instinct, of course Rose was going to attempt to push her father out of the way, for better or worse that's just Rose.

[tasabian.livejournal.com]

I liked Martha better than Rose. Both actresses were great but I preferred the no-nonsense delivery of FA & developed a bit of a girl-crush on her.

However, I don't think RTD said anything wrong in the interview - the relationship between the Doctor and Rose was portrayed as far more emotional than his more collegial relationship with Martha - and it makes total sense that the Doctor would still be missing Rose throughout S3.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Exactly. It bothered me far more when SR and GITR had a total lack of emotional continuity in regards to Rose's response to Mickey joining them. Regardless of how things used to, the ending of Doomsday clearly spelled out that this was a different type of DW, so I'd have expected nothing less than for it to be followed up on the following year. You cannot part the main character from someone in that way, and then not have it affect him strongly the following year. I mean maybe it's after sitting through countless episodes of Clana angst, but geez I don't even feel that the show hammered D/R home that strongly in season 3, and IMO it's fandom that blew it out of proportion more than anything


S&J had the Doctor say that he travelled with someone called Rose

TSC in the bedroom scene, and then later on saying the name keps him fighting (that was one episode where I think the Rose references were overegged, but perhaps because of it being early on in the season, RTD thought it was necessary?)

Gridlock with Martha asking if he had taken Rose there before

The Evolution of the Daleks has Martha tell Tallulah that she feels the Doctor is still hung up on another companion when he looks at her, although Rose's name doesn't actually come up there

The diary in HN with John Smith

Utopia has Jack bring up Rose to ask what happenned with her, and the discussion with the Doctor

The Last of the Time Lords had The Master attempt to use Rose's memory to belittle Martha and fail


And umm that's it. A lot of those references were like one sentence mentions as well, so hardly overwhelmed the season

[fallen-iceangel.livejournal.com]

There's just something about calling Martha 'Second Best' that just gets under my skin. While I do hate (second Season) Rose, that's not what bothers me. We all know the Doctor would have wanted Rose there but to say he'd have perferred Rose over Martha is just so... Wrong. Saying one person is better than the other for whatever reason is just... infuriating to me.

And I think I'd feel the same way if the roles were reverse and Martha was in the first two seasons and Rose was the new comer.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I think "second best" came from the Daily Mail though? What RTS seemed to have been quoted as saying was that they were careful to not introduce Martha as a new Rose, which I can understand. I would have had a hard time taking the Doctor seriously as a character if he had parted from Rose in the way that he did in Doomsday, and then immediately after bonded with another young girl from London in a similar way. It would have made him look about as shallow as a puddle

We all know the Doctor would have wanted Rose there but to say he'd have perferred Rose over Martha is just so... Wrong. Saying one person is better than the other for whatever reason is just... infuriating to me.

I think that, for the Doctor, he wouldn't necessarily say that Rose was the better person in objective terms. Or to quote Good Will Hunting hee, it's not about the other person being perfect, it's whether you feel that they are perfect for you. And in their time together in seasons 1 and 2, I get the sense of some major bonding going on

I said this in a discusion with someone yesterday actually, but is it really true when fandom gets all serious and insists that he loves them all, and it's wrong to talk of preferences. He was certaintly thrilled at Sarah Jane's return, and there were other characters such as Jamie and Jo that he bonded with big-time, and was sad to part from. And he wouldn't have been hit so hard by the loss of Dodo say or Turlough. In that sense, like any viewer, the Doctor has always had its perferences, so isn't it new Who only being more overt with the Doctor's emotions, rather than reinventing how the show works? The Doctor has always had favourites, he's just never been allowed to grief for them before quite so consistently, before DW became more character-centric with its return

[chiri-chan.livejournal.com]

RTD meant it in terms of the next companion was inevitably to be second best in the Doctor's eyes

That's what I think is causing it - and that might of been how it came across, and even how RTD wanted it to, but to old school fans that is horrible. Absolutely horrible. The Doctor doesn't work in grades of second best or even first best, and it's one thing if the Doctor doesn't realize he's doing it, and it's another if he does it and doesn't care.

There is nothing "awful" about the Doctor moving on, nothing *awful* about him loving his time with the next one, nothing *awful* about loving everyone. He loves them all, they are all different for a reason, and he loves them all because of who they are and their differences - that's why he loves them, he enjoys and thrives on it. That's who the Doctor is. That's what the Doctor does. If people are outraged it's probably due to them seeing an icon they love in the hands of a man who IMO after reading that? does not get it AT ALL. That's my problem with the whole making every companion sexualized anyway - I don't think there is the need or even want by most fans to have that sort of "ranking" going on. All it ends up being is *insulting.*

Each companion is different, each companion serves their own purpose, and each is special to the Doctor and to fans in different ways. Subtext can be whatever it is, and that's fine, any Who-shipper who wants to run with that, I don't see an issue with. But that's just that - it should be, IMO, subtext. Not text-text because you get into these situations -- people who prefer older school education based type of companions (which are merely hold overs from when it was an educational based program) get called snobs, people who like newer identifiable companions get called idiots, and everything ends up being boiled down to a ship war.

I'm not asking for RTD's head on a stick, but I definitely won't miss him when he (and his Lana Langificated companion in Rose Tyler) go far, far away.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Not text-text because you get into these situations -- people who prefer older school education based type of companions (which are merely hold overs from when it was an educational based program) get called snobs,

Oh I don't think it's snobby of people to prefer Martha or dislike Rose, it's only when people bring up Rose working retail in a disparaging way, that it gets up my nose. So many people use class based insults to attack Rose (calling her a chav as well. She's lower-class, it's really not the same thing), and are simply shocked that the Doctor could value Rose over a medical student, and decide that of course there must be something sinister at work there :/


I agree on being over ships in DW now. I like Nine/Rose in season 1 and wish they had just left it there as something special and different, introducing Sarah Jane as someone who saw the Doctor as her life just didn't make sense, not when they had been presented as best friends in their own era. And Ten/Rose turned into that couple that you avoid at parties

[bubonicplague.livejournal.com]

Just let me applaud you once again!

Now, granted, I could have done without the whole unrequited love aspect for most of the season, as it was really getting on my nerves, and maybe half of the Rose mentions would have been preferable. Still, think that this insinuation by fans that one is somehow "better" than the other (in terms of who deserves romance, not in terms of personal character preferences) smacks of sexism. I do believe that Ten treated Martha like shit, but I also think Ten treated Rose like shit - hell, I'll say I think Ten is second best to either of them - but that's just part of his character.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Oh I really disliked Rose in SR, her response to Mickey was so hateful that it was the first time that I lost her as my POV character, and felt more for Mickey instead. It happened again with the Doctor and Rose's giggling together at Mickey in the Cyberman opener *just smack*

I thought that Rose played well off Nine, but that she and Ten fed off one anothers hyperness way too much. I always felt that Ten clicked the most with older women actually. If we couldn't have had Donna as a companion, I'd have gone for Jackie! And there was his rapport with Queen Victoria too, and Sarah-Jane. I mean he and Martha work fine together too, and are certaintly less annoying than Ten/Rose could be, but I can't see that I've particularly been wowed with any actor chemistry there. I am really more excited over Ten/Donna, I think that's going to be the perfect dynamic for him. If anyone needs a slap now and again, and less worship from young girls crushing on him, it's Ten *g*

[thedabara-cds.livejournal.com]

As a fan of the old Dr. Who shows from way back, I know better then to get too attached to any companion.

In the case of Rose/Martha, I thought it was more a case of RTD trying to write the character of the new companion differently and not retread the same road as the Dr/Rose relationship, while still writing the kind of female lead he likes to write - which seems to be a very Rose-ish sort of character. I don't think he was making any kind of big statement about either character's worth or specialness, just trying to crank out decent scripts on time each week without getting too repetitive & formuliac.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

As a fan of the old Dr. Who shows from way back, I know better then to get too attached to any companion.

Heh that was something that I found interesting actually. Rose left in a really intense fashion, at the time supposedly for good, and people got told that get used to how DW works, and don't be mean to the new companion. And then some of these same people freak out when Martha is going to temp leave, even when we all know that she's coming back. Whenever Rose or Donna came up, there's almost always comments along the lines of how urgh terrible those actresses are, and we want Martha to come back, I want to kill the writers at the thought of Rose coming back. And yet "Rosefen" and "batchippers" are generally the only ones seen as somehow apart from the rest of fandom for their attachement to a character?

Eh idk, there seems to be a lot of double standards all round really in this fandom, and however places like f_w like to paint it, as if one side is really any less wanky than the other. I feel the most sorry for me, who just wants to get on with watching the show, and not be exposed to hate for any of the new series companions! :P

[mojotastic.livejournal.com]

WORD X A MILLION!!

Oh Who fandom, I hate so much about the things you choose to be.

I'm not even joking though, I think Who fandom is the craziest, most pretentious, and meanest of all the fandoms I've seen. Sure, Roswell fandom was full of ship wars and nuttiness but there was never meta about how evil GINGERS are. Dear lord.

I agree with so much of what you said in your post that I can't even choose what I agree with most. But if I had to choose it would be this conception that Martha is second best because the Doctor never had romantic feelings for her. Because, God knows, that's the only way you judge a lady?

Martha had a lot going for her. She was cool and smart and wore weird hairstyles and had a leather jacket. (I feel these last two are very important :P) She did not need the Ten's validation to make her "the best". o_O Seriously, fandom? Seriously?

You can't have feelings for everyone (although apparently the Doctor is supposed to?) and he just didn't see Martha that way. He liked her a great deal and, despite the overall opinion of fandom, WAS fairly nice to her. Nine was never always nice to Rose either. In fact the Doctor was short with Rose on several occasions, but I guess that's ok in the eyes of fandom because she was just a stupid shopgirl? GAH!

I really hate this fandom. Saying you didn't *love* Martha, and that you're a fan of Rose and D/R is basically the equivalent of saying "I'm crazy! Disregard my opinion!" in this fandom. o_O

I wonder how much hate is gonna come Donna's way? For all the complaining that the fandom did about how Rose fans should "get over it" when she left , they're sure complaining a lot about Martha and I've seen some downright nasty things about Donna ALREADY from Martha fans.

This fandom makes me so sad. The pretension, IMO , is just off the charts. O_O It's a show about low budget *aliens*. Perspective?

Also didn't that article that everyone is wanking out over also screw up several details, including episode details? So really, who knows what RTD ACTUALLY SAID? Why do you fail me Who fandom?

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I'm not even joking though, I think Who fandom is the craziest, most pretentious, and meanest of all the fandoms I've seen.

Co-sign!

I wonder how much hate is gonna come Donna's way? For all the complaining that the fandom did about how Rose fans should "get over it" when she left , they're sure complaining a lot about Martha and I've seen some downright nasty things about Donna ALREADY from Martha fans.

There was an actual petition set up against Donna! Not to mention the Rose hate is never-ending. The hypocrisy of it all amazes me.

[yourfavoritesky.livejournal.com]

I don't really have anything to add, because I think you've said it all beautifully and without resorting to angry caps like I did LOL I applaud you for taking the time to form a coherent post about this, I didn't have the will or the strenght.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

*hugs* I hate that if I make too many remarks defending Rose, people may label me a "batchipper". And if I make a comment defending Martha, some crazy D/R comm will put a black mark against your name. Not that I would even want to join, but just the idea of people being judged on whether or not they have "conflicting interests" is depressing.

There should be a community for people who are fans of both Rose and Martha! At least that way I could join in the squee over Martha without inevitably stumbling across Rose hate of some kind or another. This fandom gets me down *sighs*

[quiet-fractures.livejournal.com]

I agree with everything.

I haven't really seen the crazy but I've been hearing about it. I stopped paying attention to DW fandom after the first season of DW.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I sometimes wonder if I should do the same :/ The Rose hate in this fandom is like a freaking virus at this point, it just never ends.

And I know that there are many Rose fans that exist, but it just feels like we are so outnumbered compared to the haters, so I can only guess that most Rose fans tend to stick to shippy comms and such. I nearly always find general DW comms consisting of Martha love/Rose hate. So whenever I hear dislike that it's Rose fans that outnumber everyone in fandom, and spread the Rose love so heavily, I'm like damn where *g* Wherever I go it's Martha love, and it would just be nice to have more of a balance, and not feel that Rose is quite so hated. Or that we should feel obliged to hate Rose if we want to embrace Martha

[rahirah]

I liked Rose. And it's perfectly understandable that the Doctor fell for her in a way he's rarely or never fallen for a companion before, and that he'd be devastated by her loss, and probably wouldn't fall for his next companion - or maybe any other companion ever - in the same way.

But the whole 'second best' thing could have been avoided simply by not having Martha be in love with the Doctor. (Or by going for a much older, much younger, happily married, or otherwise sexually unavailable companion and taking the romance issue off the table entirely.) The vast majority of companions have not been in love with the Doctor, nor he with them. The only reason I can see for making Martha be in love with the Doctor is to assure the audience that no companion will ever replace Rose in the Doctor's hearts, even if he lets them into the TARDIS. In that sense, Martha was created expressly to be second best to Rose. (That said, I don't think the Doctor treated her horribly - he treated her with the same oblivious arrogance he treats most of his companions, and was always honest with her.)

I'm not a shipper where DW is concerned, and I don't give a hoot who the Doctor wuvs best. But if every companion for the rest of the series is going to moon after the Doctor, be compared to the long-vanished Rose and found lacking, well, that's going to be kind of annoying.

[sum1-different.livejournal.com]

["In that sense, Martha was created expressly to be second best to Rose."]

If so it was a bad move to do that with a black companion.

["But if every companion for the rest of the series is going to moon after the Doctor, be compared to the long-vanished Rose and found lacking, well, that's going to be kind of annoying."]

Yep.

[sum1-different.livejournal.com]

I don't agree with people having weird fits about this but I do think the unrequited love angle was unnecessary and detrimental. And I think the show was ruined in season 3 (and is going to be worse in season 4 with Donna) so I think there's definitely reason to be angry with RTD to some extent. I think the show is being totally flushed down the toilet and that certainly pisses me off.

["and slur their name by calling them a bigot"]

But some writers are bigots. Not talking about anyone on Doctor Who, but there are bigoted writers and showrunners out there.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't say that I was a fan of the unrequited love, but at the same time I can understand why RTD wanted to include it.. And I actually prefer series 3 to 2, mostly for JS's Master that I know you hate *g*

And sure some writers and showrunners are bigots, but people using all caplocks to shout about how RTD is a bigot that should get fucked up the arse, doesn't exactly make them look great when that's them responding to a fictional character returning to DW. That just reinforces my suspicion that most of the outrage comes more from shipping concerns with Martha, rather than wanting to say anything sensible about the show. (Some people have made good and interesting points of course, but a lot of people seem to just be jumping on the bandwagon because they are furious at the treatment of their favourite character, and want to bash the writers for it unfairly. As if some of those people even gave two hoots when it was Mickey being cast aside. But because they love Martha, and wanted her to take a shippy place at Ten's side, it's attack RTD time).

But then I always thought it was quite transparent when the Kittens started digging up all these examples of how Joss Whedon treats gay characters, when they had been happily watching the show and applauding it getting awards for his positive portrayal of a gay relationship, it was only when their favourite character got killed that bigotry was shouted to all and sundry. And then the TWoP joking ad about get over Tara's death, calling that an insult to all lesbians. That kind of fandom involvement does tend to cloud the outrage for me