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Regarding the outrage that this interview has caused
http://freemaagyeman.com/news/2007/12/15/russell-t-davies-series-4-finale/
Davies is a touch defensive when he explains that Martha was always going to be second best to Rose. 'That's how we played it, rather than fight it. It would have been an awful moment if the doctor had said. "Oh, you are like a new Rose to me."
I do not understand why people are freaking out from that interview so much. RTD meant it in terms of the next companion was inevitably to be second best in the Doctor's eyes, and umm yeah, I'm not sure what's controversial over simply stating that very true fact of what has already appeared on the show in series 3. The Doctor met Rose after the Time War, the two of them had bonded to an incredible extent, and were then seperated in Doomsday in a way that meant they would never meet again. It didn't matter how wonderful the next companion was, he was always going to have moments of wishing he were still with Rose
There seems to be such shock that Martha is not considered more worthy of the Doctor's respect, when she is a medical student, and Rose is "an uneducated peroxide blonde chav" who works in a shop. Umm he's a Time Lord and way above us anyway, intelligence is not the primary thing that drew the Doctor to humanity. (And his preferring Rose's company to Martha isn't all that new or scandalous, the Third Doctor enjoyed Jo's company, and mourned her loss more than he ever did the more intelligent Liz, right?)
DW fandom has too many snobs. Who cares if Rose has no GCSEs, that doesn't make her any less worthy of going on adventures with the Doctor, it's not like the majority of these adventures requires knowledge of advanced maths! In season 3 the Doctor described Rose as "so very human", so obviously Rose did have what appealed to him in a human to go on adventures with. People keep bringing up how Martha is smarter than Rose, and Rose is just a shop assistant with nothing exceptional about her at all in comparison, but that's missing the point that the Doctor doesn't choose companions based on brain power. If he did, he'd be picking up people who spend the day sat behind computers in offices with their many degrees. (Adam was a genuis, yet even he got dissed back in season 1, with the Doctor making the point that he only takes the best, and you're not it). We're all "stupid apes" in comparison to Time Lords, so that's obviously not what made humans his favourite species, or even what comes in most useful on the experiences that the Doctor takes you on. His main requirment seems to be for the companion to have a sense of wonder, and be ready to get out there and experience all kinds of life.
With Fear Her for example, the Doctor and Rose just clicked, and had a great time together. We see the Doctor missing that connection in The Shakespeares Code (not that his rudeness is excused there). The companion following Rose might have been more book smart, but the Doctor was connecting from the heart, not the brain. No matter how smart and generally awesome Martha was, she would never be Rose to him, and he was always going to miss that.
However, regardless of the Doctor's issues in series 3, Martha is going to be appearing in a spin-off, as well as continue in DW. All of this surely points to the fact that she is meant to be a kick-ass character in her own right, and that RTD does appreciate her. Martha's character didn't need the Doctor to fall in romantic love with her, especially when the audience all know the reason why that didn't happen, and it had nothing to do with Martha's flaws. I mean heck plenty of people did fall for Martha. The guy who snogged her in 42. Tom giving up his life to try and protect Martha. Even Shakespeare flirted with Martha. I personally find it much closer to sexism than anything from RTD when fandom takes the attitude that it doesn't matter whether or not Martha left the series kicking ass, all that really matters is that the Doctor didn't fall in love with her, and that therefore proves that she was never allowed to measure up to Rose. The Doctor falling in love was not needed in order to validate Martha as a companion. In fact, if it weren't for Martha's unrequited love that ultimately caused her to leave, I see no reason why both she and Jack couldn't have carried on travelling with the Doctor and having fun together. In her farewell speech, Martha admits that the Doctor likes her fine, but it's just too painful to have to keep on waiting and hoping, as she saw happen with a friend of hers. She didn't leave because the Doctor treated her poorly, but because she had fallen in romantic love, and it hurt too badly that he didn't feel the same way.
On another note, I don't get this argument that the Doctor treated Martha so terribly. Apparently he never said she was fantastic, he never said thank you for anything, all he did was compare her to Rose. Yet the only times the Doctor brings up Rose around Martha, were in Smith and Jones, and The Shakespeare Code. And an indirect reference in HN with John Smith's journal. Otherwise the people bringing up Rose were Martha, Jack, and the Master. (Gridlock reference was Martha asking if the Doctor had taken Rose there before). Probably the rudest the Doctor was to Martha was early on when he kept saying it would only be one trip, not a full-time companion. That was unappreciative granted. But even then he did go to the trouble of specially luring Martha into the Tardis after being impressed with her in S&J, and he admitted that she was never really just on there for one trip, he just couldn't bring himself to get attached again. For all the comparisons to how Donna was treated so much better in TRB, umm not really. The Doctor went to the trouble of asking them both on the Tardis, he made a bit of an effort to attract Martha in fact, and went back in time to show off. It was once Martha accepted his offer, that he quickly said that she wouldn't be replacing his previous companion, and I see no reason why he wouldn't have said the exact same thing to Donna if she had agreed to travel with him.
I mean how is any of this worth writing RTD protest letters? How is this worth embarrassing yourself by heading a post "Why must Rusty still be alive". People have made icons of their wish fullfillment of RTD's head exploding!!! I don't care if it is meant partly in fun, I think the hate this fandom have for a writer and human being is vile
It's enough to make SV fandom look quite sensible in fact o_0 And I thought I was being extremely angry when SV sunk my ship and I was all "So not buying the DVDs now". Apparently it's cool these days to wish personal harm on the writers as well, and slur their name by calling them a bigot. But if I was RTD, and saw people online discussing fantasies of my being set on fire, I certaintly wouldn't be very inclined to sympathize with their POV, or take much note of their complaints. It's just inviting any lurking members of the production team to see you as the lunatic fringe
http://freemaagyeman.com/news/2007/12/15/russell-t-davies-series-4-finale/
Davies is a touch defensive when he explains that Martha was always going to be second best to Rose. 'That's how we played it, rather than fight it. It would have been an awful moment if the doctor had said. "Oh, you are like a new Rose to me."
I do not understand why people are freaking out from that interview so much. RTD meant it in terms of the next companion was inevitably to be second best in the Doctor's eyes, and umm yeah, I'm not sure what's controversial over simply stating that very true fact of what has already appeared on the show in series 3. The Doctor met Rose after the Time War, the two of them had bonded to an incredible extent, and were then seperated in Doomsday in a way that meant they would never meet again. It didn't matter how wonderful the next companion was, he was always going to have moments of wishing he were still with Rose
There seems to be such shock that Martha is not considered more worthy of the Doctor's respect, when she is a medical student, and Rose is "an uneducated peroxide blonde chav" who works in a shop. Umm he's a Time Lord and way above us anyway, intelligence is not the primary thing that drew the Doctor to humanity. (And his preferring Rose's company to Martha isn't all that new or scandalous, the Third Doctor enjoyed Jo's company, and mourned her loss more than he ever did the more intelligent Liz, right?)
DW fandom has too many snobs. Who cares if Rose has no GCSEs, that doesn't make her any less worthy of going on adventures with the Doctor, it's not like the majority of these adventures requires knowledge of advanced maths! In season 3 the Doctor described Rose as "so very human", so obviously Rose did have what appealed to him in a human to go on adventures with. People keep bringing up how Martha is smarter than Rose, and Rose is just a shop assistant with nothing exceptional about her at all in comparison, but that's missing the point that the Doctor doesn't choose companions based on brain power. If he did, he'd be picking up people who spend the day sat behind computers in offices with their many degrees. (Adam was a genuis, yet even he got dissed back in season 1, with the Doctor making the point that he only takes the best, and you're not it). We're all "stupid apes" in comparison to Time Lords, so that's obviously not what made humans his favourite species, or even what comes in most useful on the experiences that the Doctor takes you on. His main requirment seems to be for the companion to have a sense of wonder, and be ready to get out there and experience all kinds of life.
With Fear Her for example, the Doctor and Rose just clicked, and had a great time together. We see the Doctor missing that connection in The Shakespeares Code (not that his rudeness is excused there). The companion following Rose might have been more book smart, but the Doctor was connecting from the heart, not the brain. No matter how smart and generally awesome Martha was, she would never be Rose to him, and he was always going to miss that.
However, regardless of the Doctor's issues in series 3, Martha is going to be appearing in a spin-off, as well as continue in DW. All of this surely points to the fact that she is meant to be a kick-ass character in her own right, and that RTD does appreciate her. Martha's character didn't need the Doctor to fall in romantic love with her, especially when the audience all know the reason why that didn't happen, and it had nothing to do with Martha's flaws. I mean heck plenty of people did fall for Martha. The guy who snogged her in 42. Tom giving up his life to try and protect Martha. Even Shakespeare flirted with Martha. I personally find it much closer to sexism than anything from RTD when fandom takes the attitude that it doesn't matter whether or not Martha left the series kicking ass, all that really matters is that the Doctor didn't fall in love with her, and that therefore proves that she was never allowed to measure up to Rose. The Doctor falling in love was not needed in order to validate Martha as a companion. In fact, if it weren't for Martha's unrequited love that ultimately caused her to leave, I see no reason why both she and Jack couldn't have carried on travelling with the Doctor and having fun together. In her farewell speech, Martha admits that the Doctor likes her fine, but it's just too painful to have to keep on waiting and hoping, as she saw happen with a friend of hers. She didn't leave because the Doctor treated her poorly, but because she had fallen in romantic love, and it hurt too badly that he didn't feel the same way.
On another note, I don't get this argument that the Doctor treated Martha so terribly. Apparently he never said she was fantastic, he never said thank you for anything, all he did was compare her to Rose. Yet the only times the Doctor brings up Rose around Martha, were in Smith and Jones, and The Shakespeare Code. And an indirect reference in HN with John Smith's journal. Otherwise the people bringing up Rose were Martha, Jack, and the Master. (Gridlock reference was Martha asking if the Doctor had taken Rose there before). Probably the rudest the Doctor was to Martha was early on when he kept saying it would only be one trip, not a full-time companion. That was unappreciative granted. But even then he did go to the trouble of specially luring Martha into the Tardis after being impressed with her in S&J, and he admitted that she was never really just on there for one trip, he just couldn't bring himself to get attached again. For all the comparisons to how Donna was treated so much better in TRB, umm not really. The Doctor went to the trouble of asking them both on the Tardis, he made a bit of an effort to attract Martha in fact, and went back in time to show off. It was once Martha accepted his offer, that he quickly said that she wouldn't be replacing his previous companion, and I see no reason why he wouldn't have said the exact same thing to Donna if she had agreed to travel with him.
I mean how is any of this worth writing RTD protest letters? How is this worth embarrassing yourself by heading a post "Why must Rusty still be alive". People have made icons of their wish fullfillment of RTD's head exploding!!! I don't care if it is meant partly in fun, I think the hate this fandom have for a writer and human being is vile
It's enough to make SV fandom look quite sensible in fact o_0 And I thought I was being extremely angry when SV sunk my ship and I was all "So not buying the DVDs now". Apparently it's cool these days to wish personal harm on the writers as well, and slur their name by calling them a bigot. But if I was RTD, and saw people online discussing fantasies of my being set on fire, I certaintly wouldn't be very inclined to sympathize with their POV, or take much note of their complaints. It's just inviting any lurking members of the production team to see you as the lunatic fringe
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(no subject)
Date: 2007-12-16 06:19 pm (UTC)Oh yeah I totally get that, sorry if it sounded like I always associate Rose dislike with snobbery! I think all of the character hate in this fandom has just been getting me down lately. If it's not Rose being attacked, it's Donna *sighs* And so many people seem to be hung up on why the Doctor would love Rose when she's "only a shopgirl" and it's just really making me mad. As if those who work retail are somehow less worthwhile people for the Doctor to fall for. If we're looking at it that way, then both Rose and Martha are way too dumb to catch the Doctor's eyes, considering that he's an ancient Time Lord!
There were times during the third season that I felt he dissed her and her feelings too harshly, putting her into situations that showed he had a total disregard for what Martha would have to go through in regards to her feelings for him.
Which moments stood out to you in that respect then? Idk, I thought that the Doctor was fine with Martha in S&J, he made one comment at the end about "not that you're replacing her", and in TSC he said that Rose would know what to do, but Martha is too new. And from that, fandom seemed to blow it up into the Doctor constantly bringing up Rose to put down Martha, and I guess I'm not seeing it. There was lots of hugging, "Martha Jones you are a star" etc, so I didn't think that the Doctor was as horrible to Martha as fandom talks about to be honest. I thought he was a far better friend than he would have been boyfriend, I mean look at how Rose got treated in TGITF *g*
Thanks for letting me share my opinions.
No worries, thanks for commenting :)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-12-16 06:31 pm (UTC)For me, personally, one moment you mentioned was when he said Rose would know what to do. Well, Martha will know what to do too, when given a second to figure this gig out. Also, his decision to hide in 1913 was piss-poor, but that was a story based on a book written before Martha's era as an assistant, so I understood why that had to happen. My memory isn't good enough for me to name chapter and verse on episodes where I felt the way I do, I just remember thinking a lot during the series, "damn, have some consideration for this girl's feelings." One moment that particularly stands out happened in the Master episodes, like when he made the line about being in love with someone, and they don't even know you exist. I know the Doctor is aware of how Martha feels about him, and that was callous, IMO. And the way he was biting her head off when Martha told the Doctor that Yana had a Time Lord fob watch. It was always little things like that that irritated me.
As to Rose just being a shop girl, I've never seen her inferior for that. Hell, when you come right down to it, I'm just a maid, what's that make me? The world is made up more of people who do the dirty work than those who don't, so anyone who thinks Rose is inferior because she works in retail is full of shit, as far as I'm concerned :D That is snobbery, and that's wrong.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-12-16 06:52 pm (UTC)And yeah the Doctor was definitely rude in that reference from TSC, I won't deny that. I'd say that he and Martha were still feeling one another out at that point, and it wasn't until say Gridlock (when Martha was kidnapped) when he realised how much she had come to mean to him. In The Lazarus Experiment it was already a case of the Doctor protesting to much, as he was quite happy to meet her family in that episode, and admits at the end that she was always going to be with him for more than the one trip
Also, his decision to hide in 1913 was piss-poor
I think that was the Tardis that located them there though?
(no subject)
Date: 2007-12-17 06:46 pm (UTC)People bringing the whole class thing into it is annoying. And they shouldn't expect the Doctor to share their class prejudices.