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Jul. 21st, 2005 10:37 pmThe Smallville spoiler the network didn't want you to know
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It's supposed to be kept hush hush for a bit I think.
( Read more... )
It's supposed to be kept hush hush for a bit I think.
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Jul. 10th, 2005 08:47 pmCause I suddenly had all these deep thoughts and stuff...
Now following debate on Spike being softened by redemptionists, I agree that fic with fluffy puppy Spike isn't a good thing. But focusing only on Spike's darker parts really isn't any more accurate. I'm thinking of the attitude recently that redemptionists deny the true Spike, and only people who love the Big Bad accept the real him.
And yet, even in in his very baddest during season 2, he was never the big bad of the season. Spike was losing his demonic face around Dru. Not to mention the tears in his eyes at Dru/Angelus flirting aww. Season 2 is the example people point to for big bad Spike being the true Spike, but he was being used as a contrast a lot of the time to the more evil Angelus (necklace vs beating heart anyone? *g*) And not saying his motives weren't selfish, but he was shown to be working against Angelus wanting to bring the world into hell. Spike was too in touch with his humanity and decided he likes this world really. That's already a sign that he wasn't "pure demon".
Plus he was loves bitch from the first as well ;) I'd like to stress I was a lot younger then *ahem*, but I used to listen to all these songs like Lovesfool. I'd sing along and think of Spike/Dru. Shut up :p And that was during the time of seasons 2 and 3 Spike.
He has his demon, but there was always a lot of humanity mixed up there. Dru dumped him in season 3 for "going soft" and not being demon enough for the likes of her.
I'm not saying Spike wasn't "evil" and lacking a conscience because he quite blatantly was. I'm just pointing out the leftover William humanity that got him to go on that soul quest was always there and influencing him. Season 2 has Spike doing very bad things, but there was always the need to connect to people, which what set him off on that soul quest to be accepted and loved by Buffy. He just switched from wanting to be bad enough for Dru to wanting to be good enough for Buffy.
That's why FFL is so brilliant, because it wasn't a retcon. Not to mention LMPTM with Spike wanting his mother to join him and Dru/Destiny with Spike wanting to be faithful to Dru and not liking the kink that Angelus introduces to the family.
Spike was by no means a saint, in the past he was a bad guy, but it's doing the character a disservice to not recognise there was more to him than that. As a vampire in Smashed he has to psych himself up into biting that girl. (And JM can "blame" his performance all he likes, it was scripted as ambiguous as the commentary confirms)
FFL fit with the story perfectly and it does all look planned in retrospect, even if it wasn't ;)
Spike did lack a moral compass, but he could love very deeply and that's why he was able to understand he had hurt Buffy and done something wrong after SR. After DT we were shown that Spike cannot grasp why Buffy considered Katrina's death a crime. SR wasn't about Spike realising he had committed a criminal act, rather he went for the soul because he had hurt the woman he loved and couldn't understand what was going on with him.
Seeing as the personalities generally carry over after someone's been vamped, I pretty much view the soul as a conscience and think that's the most consistent way that it's been portrayed.
Now following debate on Spike being softened by redemptionists, I agree that fic with fluffy puppy Spike isn't a good thing. But focusing only on Spike's darker parts really isn't any more accurate. I'm thinking of the attitude recently that redemptionists deny the true Spike, and only people who love the Big Bad accept the real him.
And yet, even in in his very baddest during season 2, he was never the big bad of the season. Spike was losing his demonic face around Dru. Not to mention the tears in his eyes at Dru/Angelus flirting aww. Season 2 is the example people point to for big bad Spike being the true Spike, but he was being used as a contrast a lot of the time to the more evil Angelus (necklace vs beating heart anyone? *g*) And not saying his motives weren't selfish, but he was shown to be working against Angelus wanting to bring the world into hell. Spike was too in touch with his humanity and decided he likes this world really. That's already a sign that he wasn't "pure demon".
Plus he was loves bitch from the first as well ;) I'd like to stress I was a lot younger then *ahem*, but I used to listen to all these songs like Lovesfool. I'd sing along and think of Spike/Dru. Shut up :p And that was during the time of seasons 2 and 3 Spike.
He has his demon, but there was always a lot of humanity mixed up there. Dru dumped him in season 3 for "going soft" and not being demon enough for the likes of her.
I'm not saying Spike wasn't "evil" and lacking a conscience because he quite blatantly was. I'm just pointing out the leftover William humanity that got him to go on that soul quest was always there and influencing him. Season 2 has Spike doing very bad things, but there was always the need to connect to people, which what set him off on that soul quest to be accepted and loved by Buffy. He just switched from wanting to be bad enough for Dru to wanting to be good enough for Buffy.
That's why FFL is so brilliant, because it wasn't a retcon. Not to mention LMPTM with Spike wanting his mother to join him and Dru/Destiny with Spike wanting to be faithful to Dru and not liking the kink that Angelus introduces to the family.
Spike was by no means a saint, in the past he was a bad guy, but it's doing the character a disservice to not recognise there was more to him than that. As a vampire in Smashed he has to psych himself up into biting that girl. (And JM can "blame" his performance all he likes, it was scripted as ambiguous as the commentary confirms)
FFL fit with the story perfectly and it does all look planned in retrospect, even if it wasn't ;)
Spike did lack a moral compass, but he could love very deeply and that's why he was able to understand he had hurt Buffy and done something wrong after SR. After DT we were shown that Spike cannot grasp why Buffy considered Katrina's death a crime. SR wasn't about Spike realising he had committed a criminal act, rather he went for the soul because he had hurt the woman he loved and couldn't understand what was going on with him.
Seeing as the personalities generally carry over after someone's been vamped, I pretty much view the soul as a conscience and think that's the most consistent way that it's been portrayed.
(no subject)
May. 9th, 2005 02:26 amI was just wondering around LJ season 6/7 discussions, and someone was saying they still cannot reconcile the caring Spike from Afterlife with the jerk for the morning after from Wrecked. And I know people were saying the same thing on the SMG board. It got me thinking. Run now while there's still time *g*
Spike was in a pattern of reinventing himself for the women in his life. With Dru he tortures her to get her back, because we know she really prefers Angelus and that's the behaviour she likes.
With Buffy in season 5, "I can be good" from the Crush. Spike didn't handle himself brilliantly in that episode, but it's clear he does get what Buffy is looking for in a man. Then in The Gift he thanks her for treating him like a man, not a monster. On the surface that's a really odd thing for a vampire to want to aspire too, especially a vampire who glorified in the evil he once committed with Dru, "I'm the big bad". And that's because he lacks an identity of his own, he has always reinvented himself to please the women in his life. So he's acknowledging that what's important to Buffy are morally good people with souls, and that's who he now wants to be.
Then when you get to season 6, Buffy rejects the illusion of the souled man that Spike is attempting to create for her, "You're not a man. You're a thing, an evil disgusting thing". Buffy could only let herself sleep with Spike if he was the demon lover that we see in later season 6 episodes, so that's exactly what he becomes. Spike acknowledges in Beneath You that without a soul he was simply flesh in Buffy's eyes.
Spike was adrift because in season 5 he had been relying on Buffy's light and moral purity to follow. After her death he still follows that memory in his heart, but then a Buffy returns that both Spike and Buffy suspect has lost her humanity, and they pull one another deeper into the darkness because without a soul Spike had no internal light to offer Buffy. And that's why he needed to go find the spark.
The Spike from DT and Wrecked etc is calling Buffy an animal and urging her into the darkness with him, because he was lacking his own identity, and being what he thought his lady would want him to be. A pattern he had always followed. If Buffy had responded to the tender Spike, and they "made love", we would never have seen the morning after scene from Wrecked that we got. But on the show Buffy responds to Spike in Smashed when he smacks her around, previously he had just been trying to get her to talk and was getting nowhere. But fighting and being an arsehole in Smashed, now that turns this new and unknown Buffy on. Light-switch moment for Spike...
In other words of course Spike became "the bad boyfriend" in scenes like the balcony scene, the demonic lover, because he thought that was what Buffy wanted from him. And subconsciously she did, she was sleeping with Spike to punish herself. She admits as much in CWDP, "I didn't want to be loved".
Season 7, once he is souled, is when Spike first starts thinking about the man he wants to be for himself. Soulful Spike from episodes like Afterlife did switch personalities fast, but was that not making a point about the fragility of that persona in the first place? To my mind that's ME telling us that Spike needed a soul for genuine lasting change.
Spike was in a pattern of reinventing himself for the women in his life. With Dru he tortures her to get her back, because we know she really prefers Angelus and that's the behaviour she likes.
With Buffy in season 5, "I can be good" from the Crush. Spike didn't handle himself brilliantly in that episode, but it's clear he does get what Buffy is looking for in a man. Then in The Gift he thanks her for treating him like a man, not a monster. On the surface that's a really odd thing for a vampire to want to aspire too, especially a vampire who glorified in the evil he once committed with Dru, "I'm the big bad". And that's because he lacks an identity of his own, he has always reinvented himself to please the women in his life. So he's acknowledging that what's important to Buffy are morally good people with souls, and that's who he now wants to be.
Then when you get to season 6, Buffy rejects the illusion of the souled man that Spike is attempting to create for her, "You're not a man. You're a thing, an evil disgusting thing". Buffy could only let herself sleep with Spike if he was the demon lover that we see in later season 6 episodes, so that's exactly what he becomes. Spike acknowledges in Beneath You that without a soul he was simply flesh in Buffy's eyes.
Spike was adrift because in season 5 he had been relying on Buffy's light and moral purity to follow. After her death he still follows that memory in his heart, but then a Buffy returns that both Spike and Buffy suspect has lost her humanity, and they pull one another deeper into the darkness because without a soul Spike had no internal light to offer Buffy. And that's why he needed to go find the spark.
The Spike from DT and Wrecked etc is calling Buffy an animal and urging her into the darkness with him, because he was lacking his own identity, and being what he thought his lady would want him to be. A pattern he had always followed. If Buffy had responded to the tender Spike, and they "made love", we would never have seen the morning after scene from Wrecked that we got. But on the show Buffy responds to Spike in Smashed when he smacks her around, previously he had just been trying to get her to talk and was getting nowhere. But fighting and being an arsehole in Smashed, now that turns this new and unknown Buffy on. Light-switch moment for Spike...
In other words of course Spike became "the bad boyfriend" in scenes like the balcony scene, the demonic lover, because he thought that was what Buffy wanted from him. And subconsciously she did, she was sleeping with Spike to punish herself. She admits as much in CWDP, "I didn't want to be loved".
Season 7, once he is souled, is when Spike first starts thinking about the man he wants to be for himself. Soulful Spike from episodes like Afterlife did switch personalities fast, but was that not making a point about the fragility of that persona in the first place? To my mind that's ME telling us that Spike needed a soul for genuine lasting change.
