(no subject)

[frelling_tralk]

Doctor Who legend Sylvester McCoy says only a MAN can play the Time Lord

Obviously there's been a backlash against his statements in fandom, but can I be super-unpopular and admit that I'm not sure how I feel about a female Doctor either? Not that I'm agreeing with Sylvester McCoy reasoning though, "If they changed it to be politically correct then it would ruin the dynamics between the doctor and the assistant” doesn't even make sense as an argument when the dynamic between the Doctor and his Companions changes all the time? It's hardly an established dynamic that shouldn't be touched, they all relate to one another differently depending on differing individual personalities?

But anyway, it seems like the popular thing these days in fandom is to root for a female Doctor, and I'm just not sure how I feel about it. The canon suggests that Time Lords have some control over their changes, so why would the Doctor suddenly choose to regenerate as a woman when he has kept a male identity through 12 regenerations, and seems to have always identified as male? I mean I'm not entirely opposed to a female Doctor by any means, but I guess that's why it's a little bit of a sticking point for me at the moment. The argument seems to go that the Doctor is a Time Lord and can easily choose to regenerate as female without it being a big deal, except that he hasn't through 12 regenerations so far, nor have other Time Lord's like River and Romana, so clearly Time Lord's still must have some basic concept of gender and whether they identify as male or female?

Obviously the intro of Missy has changed things by opening up Time Lord society dealing with gender identity differently, but that still all seems a bit vague to me at the moment when this is the first time that we know of (I think?) that a Time Lord has chosen to change their sex, and we don't yet know if the Master had any particular reason for switching. I guess that I'm just stuck on, whatever regeneration they go through, it's always seemed like Time Lord's still keep the same basic core personality in the past, so wouldn't the Doctor (and the Master too I guess) continue thinking of themselves as male? I feel like the lone voice in fandom when it comes to this debate, because it always seems to get painted as only someone really old-fashioned and set in their ways could not want a female Doctor. And Idk, there's definitely some interesting casting choices out there that I could see myself enjoying as the Doctor, but at the same time it does feel to me like it would be kind of a simplistic message if the show did go with "oh we're hired a biological female to play the Doctor, that means that the character is suddenly a woman now and thinks of herself that way". I mean I assume anyway that part of wanting an actress to play the role of the Doctor would include that incarnation of the Doctor starting to identify as female?

I'm certainly not opposed in any way to changing the gender of established characters for reboots, I'm just not sure how to feel about it when it comes to a character from an ongoing television series. I'm a bit of a hypocrite I guess though lol as I have been enjoying the portrayal of Missy as the Master so much that they could probably make a female Doctor work for me just as easily with the right casting, but still is there anyone else out there who also feels a bit unsure with how a female Doctor would work when he's always been portrayed as male? (The Master choosing the female form for this latest regeneration just doesn't cancel out to me the way that it's always been shown to us as working in the past for the Doctor)

Comments

[rustydragonfly.livejournal.com]

So long as they pick someone who works, I'm happy. I'd be happy with a female Doctor, but I'm not going to froth and cry sexism if the character continues to be male.

But this looks like one of those fandom things I'm better off staying well back from for my own sanity.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

It seems like there's two extremes, with internet fandom being super into the idea of a female Doctor and suspicious of anyone who doesn't agree, while most casual viewers are clutching their pearls at the very thought

In theory I'm not opposed to a female Doctor, it's the idea of him changing gender just because that doesn't really make sense to me within the show at the moment, although I have shifted slightly more to being in favour since Missy.

[celeste9]

I always feel really awkward saying that I don't much want a female Doctor either, because people tend to jump on you and accuse you of being sexist or something. But I don't much want a female Doctor. I'm not sure I could really explain why I feel that way, I just do. I think you've probably hit on most of it here, better than I could articulate. Most people think of themselves a particular way and it just seems unbelievable to me that the Doctor would suddenly start thinking of himself as a woman, and want to stay that way for an entire regeneration.

I feel like making the Doctor female would just be a stunt, sort of, like them trying to be bold and forward-thinking and 'hey, look at us, we're so radical, we changed the Doctor's gender'. But then, watching Missy made me half feel like they only did it so the Master could finally kiss the Doctor and not offend the more traditional audience members. And, yeah, to be new and different and spice things up. *shrugs*

IDK if any of that makes sense, like I said, it's mostly just a gut feeling I have that's hard to put into words.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I would probably go with it happily enough if they did ever find an actress who they believed would make for a perfect Doctor, but yeah I don't feel comfortable campaigning for it either and questioning why it hasn't happened yet. Maybe if this was the third or fourth regeneration then it would work well within the show and make sense, but the Doctor has kept his male form for twelve regenerations in a row, so at this point I accept that the Doctor identifies as male. Just as River Song identifies as female, and so to me it wouldn't have felt quite right if she decided to regenerate from Alex Kingston into a male actor


ETA Oh and I get that sex doesn't=gender, it just seems like Time Lord's have always had enough control over their regenerations to stick with their preferred sex

[rahirah]

Actually there's been a previous mention of another Time Lord, the Corsair, who changed sex when they regenerated (that was in "The Doctor's Wife," IIRC.)

As far as I'm concerned, they can cast anyone of any race, ethnicity, age, or gender as the Doctor, so long as they can pull off that essential Doctorness. I think that if Time Lords can change biological sex if they want to, then their concept of gender is probably nothing like the human conception of gender, and it doesn't make sense to say that they 'think of themselves as male' or 'think of themselves as female.' Their society might recognize half a dozen 'genders,' or none.

On the other hand, I'd also be very happy if they brought back Romana or Susan or the Rani or even Jenny, so that we'd have a mostly-female-identified Time Lord around.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I do see what you're saying about Time Lord's possibly having different concepts of gender (and I stand corrected on The Doctor's Wife!), but it still seems to me that the Time Lord's do identify as male or female enough that they want their biological sex to match that. The Master becoming "Missy" seems IMO to be a pretty big aberration, rather than something that they're all clearly comfortable with doing all the time, as the other Time Lord's have all made a point of sticking with their preferred gender everytime they regenerate. That's why I'm not sure how much sense it would make within the show for the Doctor to regenerate as a woman, even with Missy setting precedence for it

I'm not all up in arms about it though I feel I should add! A lot of people who are against a female Doctor give that side of the debate a really bad name I know :P But yeah, I'm just not sure that it would work for me with how the Doctor's character has been established as having always been male. For a film franchise reboot sure, but for a character to actually switch from male to female on a tv show as part of the continuity is what I'm not sure of I guess. They pulled it off with Missy beautifully, but I'm still not at the stage of clamouring for an actress to be considered for the Doctor's next regeneration

On the other hand, I'd also be very happy if they brought back Romana or Susan or the Rani or even Jenny, so that we'd have a mostly-female-identified Time Lord around.

I agree with that :)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_profiterole_/]

I think it'd be interesting to have a woman play the Doctor. Or a POC. So far, the various incarnations seem to have very different ages, but that's about it.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

It would be a big change to have a female Doctor definitely, but the fact that the various incarnations have all been more or less similar is what makes me question how it would work in continuity for the Doctor to decide now become a woman 12 regenerations in

[denorios.livejournal.com]

My feeling as regards a female Doctor is...well, the internal consistency of the show. We know there are Time Lords and Time Ladies, and we've never been shown or told, in all the incarnations and episodes, that it is possible for a Gallifreyan to change sex when they regenerate. The whole thing with Missy, we've never had that explained, or how she can even be the Master when we saw the Master fail to regenerate and the Doctor burn his body. So there's some things that need exploring there before it can be used as evidence in the argument.

I think there needs to be a clear divide between wanting a female DOCTOR and wanting a female Time Lord/Lady. My feeling is a bit like Bond. Let's have a gender-flipped Bond! Why not do it? But don't make it the SAME character in the same universe with the same canon and expect us to buy into the internal logic (or lack thereof). Don't give us all the same backstory and history and motivation and personality and expect me to believe he's suddenly spontaneously changed sex. Give me a spin-off, give me an AU, give me a gender-flipped version. But don't just twist the whole decades-long canon and expect me to believe that Bond, or the Doctor, can just suddenly spontaneously change sex, because that's a suspension of disbelief too far.

Besides, what is River if not effectively a female Doctor? If they did try it, the new Doctor would only suffer in comparison...

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Yeah I could buy it if the Time Lord's did see gender differently to us and didn't really care if they regenerated as male or female, but all evidence so far is that they don't, their biological sex matches up every time with how they self-identity?

And right, I can understand feeling like it would be an important and progressive step to have a female Doctor, but does that mean that it would work in the continuity of the show? I'm not as opposed to it with film characters like Bond actually (although I'm not familiar with the source material there either admittedly *g*), cause every film is kind of its own version I believe? But for a continuing story like Doctor Who, I do question how it would work for an established male character to choose in-story to switch to female. It worked with Missy of course, but as you say, there are still questions there as to why the switch, it's a pretty out of the norm event within the show

[aravishermione]

Okay, I'm a million seasons behind with DW but I've been on the periphery of the fandom (I watched Torchwood when that came out and a lot of the assistants do cameos in that too) and I've seen the up in arms thing and the possibility of a female doctor. Anyway, I don't know who Missy is (I am going to catch up on DW, especially since it's on Netflix) and I've kept my thoughts to myself because internet people love to gang up and attack, BUT...I feel the same as you. I mean, I'm not against feminism or anything, but having a female just to be politically correct rubs me the wrong way (like female quotas). I like many shows with strong female characters, when that's the established premise of the show. But DW is so different from....anything really. Idk. I think I'd rather see a male Doctor with a male companion over a female doctor (sorry, was just watching Torchwood and the dynamic between Jack and Ianto (I mean, even if they didn't have a relationship like they did) was really good. That's just my two cents. But I haven't seen past season 2 (although I've obviously seen the other doctors after through the internet) so maybe I don't count :P

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I'd love another male companion! Heh Sylvester McCoy didn't really seem to consider that when he was complaining about how a female Doctor would ruin the dynamic between the Doctor and his assistant!


Spoilers for Missy and DW:

And Missy is the Doctor's long-standing enemy, the Master. He always appeared as male in the past, so it was a twist in series 8 when a villain known as Missy was eventually revealed to be short for Mistress, aka The Master

[sabotabby]

My objection has more to do with contemporary sexism than Gallifreyan biology or culture. The Doctor has to seem alien. My biggest objection to, say, Tennant, was that he never sold alienness to me; my favourite Doctors seem the least human.

I think the alienness stems from a sort of awkwardness, weird features, subtle mannerisms, etc., and that is a thing that tends to be more culturally permissible among male actors than female. I can think of a handful of women who I think would pull it off—Tilda Swinton, Janelle Monae—but in general even the BBC casts for pretty with women and casts for interesting with men. I would, of course, like to see more weird and alien looking women on screen, but that's tangential.

It's also a very visceral reaction because I grew up with the show and the Doctor's always been male. Internalized sexism, I guess, but it's also hugely important to have that kind of archetype and role model. The Doctor's defining characteristics—compassion, intellect over violence, humanism in the philosophical sense—tend to be derided in men, and having the hero of a sci-fi show be all about words over fists is quite rare and significant from a feminist perspective. He shows young boys how they should act, and young girls an expectation of how men should act.

I do really want there to be a POC Doctor, though. Not for a very long time, because I want Capaldi to be the Doctor for a very long time, but for 13. Specifically, Idris Elba.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

The Doctor's defining characteristics—compassion, intellect over violence, humanism in the philosophical sense—tend to be derided in men, and having the hero of a sci-fi show be all about words over fists is quite rare and significant from a feminist perspective.

Good points :) I feared this entry would make me come off as really regressive, but I mean that's honestly how I feel. We can debate over whether the concept of gender is more fluid for Time Lord's, and perhaps it is, but the Doctor has still always been presented as a male character who is constantly regenerating into the male form, in-show is there really that much justification for him to become a woman on his 13th regeneration?

Idris Elba

Ooh I would die if they ever cast him *g* Sadly it's not looking likely though as his career has really taken off, I can't see him wanting to be tied down to DW at this point :/ But yeah, I'm all for a PoC Doctor too, there's not an sticking point for me in the same way as the Doctor switching genders is.

My biggest objection to, say, Tennant, was that he never sold alienness to me; my favourite Doctors seem the least human.

ITA! Tennant was my least favourite Doctor because he always just seemed too ~hipster cool~ to me, I could never quite gel with him :(

[next_to_normal]

Curious how you feel about a non-white Doctor? You could make the same argument that the Doctor identifies as/prefers to be white, since all his iterations have been so far.

I have mixed feelings. It's one of the most beloved and coveted roles in Britain and in sci-fi, so it might be nice for someone non-white and/or female to get a chance at it, but they certainly don't HAVE to simply for fairness or equality's sake. And I can see the in-story characterization suggesting that, after 12 regenerations, the Doctor clearly identifies as male (even though that's been dictated by casting decisions that simply excluded females by default and not any actual story considerations).

But I think the reason the demand for a female Doctor has gotten so strong is that no one associated with the show has given a GOOD reason why not, and the reasons Moffat et al give are disingenuous and insulting. "We're just casting the very best PERSON for the job AND THAT PERSON JUST HAPPENS TO BE ANOTHER WHITE DUDE." Really??? And that's something you hear ALL THE TIME in film/TV casting and it's infuriating.

If all they are truly looking for is someone captivating and "carved out of solid star", then surely they'd WANT to expand their search to include as many great actors as possible, regardless of race or gender. Clearly they want credit for openmindedness while not actually making any effort toward diversifying.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Eh I'm not opposed to a non-white Doctor at all, although I suppose that's true that you could apply my argument to that. Gender just seems so innate to me I guess that it puzzles me when fandom talks like the Doctor could just become a woman by switching forms, whereas it wouldn't be a big deal to me if he say changed his outward appearance to black and still otherwise remained the Doctor

even though that's been dictated by casting decisions that simply excluded females by default and not any actual story considerations

That's a fair point, although I'd argue that they could still have chosen to portray other Time Lord's as switching more readily between gender's as an option for Time Lord society, instead Romana for example was quite definite on being a "Time Lady", just as River always stuck with the female form

I do agree that it's frustrating that white and male is so often the default choice, but in this particular case it wouldn't entirely work for me as I suppose that I'm fixating on it being an ongoing storyline with an established male character, if they ever rebooted DW and started off a completely new version then I would be all for a female Doctor

[orangerful.livejournal.com]

There was a throwaway line in "Doctor's Wife" about a time lord that changed genders along with The Master so the seeds have been planted. And, honestly, I think fandom would stop clamoring for it if people would stop making stupid comments like this. I mean, I would love to see it, for the fun of it, but when you tell me I CAN'T? Oh now I DEMAND it LOL.

I mean, seriously, he is supposed to be out of regenerations anyway, according to the original canon, right? This show has rules, but they are pretty wibbly wobbly so I don't find a female doctor to be that much of a stretch.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

True, it doesn't help when you can always predict what these older actors are going to say if there's any suggestion of change to the status quo *g*

And they could probably find some way of making it work sure, it's not something that I'm necessarily clamouring for at the moment because I'm not sure of how it would work with how the Doctor has been established as male for so long, but I would be on-board if they handled it well and got the casting on-point. As I say, Missy working out so well has shifted my mindset a little more in that respect, and who knows maybe that was Moffat laying the groundwork for a female Doctor in the next regeneration?

[livejournal.livejournal.com]

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[elisi]

The Eleventh Doctor's very first lines (I have bolded the parts relevant to this discussion):

DOCTOR: Legs. I've still got legs. Good. Arms. Hands. Ooo, fingers. Lots of fingers. Ears, yes. Eyes, two. Nose, I've had worse. Chin, blimey. Hair. I'm a girl! No. No. I'm not a girl. And still not ginger. And something else. Something important. I'm, I'm, I'm
(Bang!)
DOCTOR: Ha! Crashing!

I'm not really coming down on any side of the argument, except I don't see why the Doctor shouldn't be female. Clearly he considers it a perfectly logical possibility. (This doesn't mean that he SHOULD become female. But discounting the possibility goes against the show canon.)

Also there have been two female Doctors already:

Joanna Lumley in The Curse of Fatal Death (yes it was for Comic Relief, but she counts just as much as Rowan Atkinson or any of the others), and Arabella Weir in Big Finish (Exile).

Add to that the Corsair (as others have mentioned upthread) and Missy, and Time Lords changing gender is clearly something the species is capable of, and not all that unusual. The Doctor treats Missy no different to how he's always treated the Master. Describes her as simply someone who was once a friend.

To me, it'd come down to the right actor. (I'd love Sue Perkins, although she might be too Tennant-like.)

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I don't disagree that changing gender is something that their species evidently is physically capable of, I suppose that I'm just questioning whether or not it feels right for the Doctor. I'm not necessarily arguing that he HAS to stay a man and that it's such an essential part of his identity, but to me him being a man does still play a part in the character that DW has established, and so it would be jarring if his next regeneration was as a woman when he has chosen to regenate as a man 12 times (and was presumedly born male with William Hurtnall as the original version). I do agree on a lot depending on casting if they ever do go with a female doctor, they could probably get me on-board fairly quickly with the right actress, it's just not something that I am picturing otherwise

Sorry if this seems nit picky, but I don't consider the Comic Relief spoof to be canon with the TV series. Missy is the only in-show example of a Time Lord switching gender (and The Doctor's Wife apparently, but I need to rewatch that episode because I can talk about that!), and so I did consider that fairly unusual when judged alongside how other established characters have never switched gender, in spite of some of them regenerating quite a few times

[eowyn.livejournal.com]

I don't want a female Doctor. After all the controversy, if we now have a female it becomes about the Doctor being a woman, not about the Doctor being the Doctor. No, thank you.

I also don't see how people think the BBC is obliged to be "politically correct" about this. No.

Also, Moffat's made some interesting comments about gender fluidity on Gallifrey recently, and how the Time Lords likely view gender. So we can rest assured that if it were to happen whilst Moffat were at the helm it wouldn't be a big deal in the script, but can you imagine the media circus around it? God. No.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Yeah I feel like whoever does get cast as the first female doctor would not have an easy time of it, it would be a lot of added pressure :(

And interesting, do you have a link to what he says? As I said above, I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea that Gallifrey is very gender-fluid, I'm just not sure that the canon backs that up when characters have always stuck with the same gender time and time again until this latest regeneration of the Master

[tasabian.livejournal.com]

I always see the Doctors as non-sexual anyway (ie, never noted any sexual chemistry between any doctor and any companion, never shipped a single pairing!) And that makes sense to me because of the Doctor's great age - sex has been outgrown.

My great dream for a Doctor would be Tilda Swinton - it is absolutely believable to me that she could form a link in the current Eccleston-Tennant-Smith-Capaldi continuum. Would love to see her with a young male companion as well.

I think the more traditional side of fandom would have a good shriek of outrage and then get used to it. After all Swinton has already regenerated from man to woman (Orlando!)

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I could see that casting actually! Although I've gotta disagree with the Doctor being asexual I'm afraid, I thought that the 11th Doctor had a definite ~thing~ for River, then there was the Tenth Doctor in The Girl In The Fireplace with some definite snogging going on

[silverusagi]

Even though we know that Time Lords can change gender, I still always sort of thought that the ones that never did identified strongly as male or female and that most didn't change because it would be "wrong" for who they were. But then I think the ones that did change, like the one mentioned in The Doctors Wife, were gender fluid or non binary. Or you might have Time Lords born as one gender but they find they don't identify as it and become the opposite gender for the rest of their regenerations. I'm not opposed to a female Doctor per se, but I agree that the character has been consistently male and maybe Time Lords do have gender identity as strongly as we do. That's looking at it from a Watsonian perspective, of course, not a Doylist one. But from a Doylist one, I don't trust the writers to do a female Doctor well anyway.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

But then I think the ones that did change, like the one mentioned in The Doctors Wife, were gender fluid or non binary.

Excellent point! Time Lords certainly seem capable of changing gender if they wish too, but it would be odd to me for it to only come up now with the Doctor when he's regenerated as male so many times that it would suggest that he *does* consider himself to be a man? Ditto with River, I can't really picture her as deciding to regenerate into anything but female. Again if the right casting came along then maybe I wouldn't be opposed to it, but it's not something that I'm picturing right now for the character as established

[bm-shipper.livejournal.com]

I really don't know how to feel about that subject but as I'm not as deep into the fandom as others (you and such), I'm definitely also not really opposed to it in general. I mean, I'm not sure what to feel about that, but I think it would definitely be interesting...

And I'm not completely sure the doctor identifies with any gender anyway... *shrugs* I always felt like that's what differs him from normal humans, that he's identifying himself with being an alien and not exactly a man and such, and I mean, he never did "normal human things" like have sex or such. He loved before (like with Rose and Ten) but for me that's also part of his personality. That when he falls in love he falls for a person, not a gender, and that's why i personally think he doesn't exactly "care" that much...

Not sure how much of it he REALLY can decide himself (like gender), because he always seems so surprised when he sees his face for the first time, so there's that...

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure either how much he can decide, but I guess I'm assuming that it's mostly physical appearance changes that can take him by surprise, other than the superficial changes he always seems to regenerate into a ~more or less~ similar form and personality

I agree that I don't think that he would care much if he regenerated as female, his reaction to Missy suggests that it's not a big deal in Time Lord society if you do switch genders, but at the same time the fact that the Doctor has never regenerated as a woman through 12 regenerations suggests to me that he must identify as male in some way, or else why would it have mattered if some of those regenerations were female and some male?

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

TBH I'm a lot more pressed about every version of the Doctor being white than I am about them being male. Is female representation THAT pressing an issue right now? Virtually every major Companion is a woman. Not that I wouldn't be all over a female Doctor. But I ain't surprised this is the go-to issue for all the angry white chicks on Tumblr.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Yeah I do agree with that, I would love a PoC Doctor, and that makes a lot more sense to me than this huge movement for a female Doctor as something that should be automatically happening. I mean I guess I can see a female Doctor working if the team wanted to do that, but as you say, there's plenty of other strong female representation with the companions, and if they ever do find Galifrey then I'd be all for having some recurring Time Ladies, the Doctor as a female is just something that I'm less sure about idk