Give me a fandom and I'll give you, either in the comments or in a separate post, five unpopular opinions for that particular fandom.
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rosecarmine - Resources: Yusuke Kamiyamane and Atle Mo
(no subject)
Date: 2015-02-10 12:09 pm (UTC)He really didn't expect all of that crap that I listed above.
Then why didn't he tell them? You claim it's because he didn't want to involve them, but if he really believed they'd back him or understand, then why would they be affronted at being involved with this great betrayal and sin? Because he knew exactly how they'd react. He wasn't an idiot. He knew he was betraying all of them and the unfortunate effect of betrayal is people are left feeling betrayed.
I mean, I agree with you that they were shitty friends. From his side, the whole thing played like he knew what he was getting into even if it didn't go pear-shaped. He knows Angel and knows he's a hypocrite when it comes to redemption. Fred and Gunn, you summed them up yourself. It's like he kicked a bees nest and complained about getting stung. It's a self-imposed angst-fest.
And it continues with Lilah. Did he feel for her? Sure, but it's only suggested so far as it provokes his gallantry. His freeing her from W&H, subsequently saving her from potential vamping and then attempting to free her from W&H. All great things, but are a testament to his loss and pain. Big overtures, not much in the way of show. And no, none of his friends gave a damn (I found Angel's 'comfort' condescending, honestly), but there other ways it could have been shown. Maybe the writers just didn't care enough to show it, but we can only go by what's onscreen.
Like I said, to me they just turned him into Angel and he always seems smarter and had longer vision than that before the Connor incident.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-02-10 02:07 pm (UTC)Yes, Wesley could not want to involve his friends in his perceived obligation to move away from everything he's ever loved to protect Connor but still expect some compassion and effort to understand him when it went pear-shaped. That's completely understandable human nature. I don't think that your typical person is totally honest and walks through life expecting that if he ever lies (even with the best of the intentions) or make a mistake, he'll rationally expect that his friends/chosen family will all violently turn on him, condone any murder attempt made on him, abandon him in the middle of a serious injury, and spit on him whenever he tries to help and endanger themselves and the world to continue to isolate him. Most people that I know do lie or make mistakes, for reasons a lot more ignoble than Wesley's, but still expect some measure of compassion and efforts at justice from their best friends.
To analogize, it's like how Buffy hid Angel's re-appearance from hell, even when Buffy thought it was possible that Feral Angel was murdering students. And Buffy went around outting Willow and Giles to her guidance counselor and saying that she was justified in hiding Angel's whereabouts because goodness knows what terrible things they'd do to Angel. (Fuggetabout Xander.) However when news broke that she'd been hiding Angel, Buffy did expect her friends' compassion and high opinion of her to make them believe her that Angel was cured and to stand down and forgive her and Angel both. And when she didn't get that from Xander.....for a few hours, Buffy was pissed.
Or how Buffy ran away on the sly on her own and never phoned home and wrote where she was and abandoned her post, but she still expected her friends to be there for her when she got home and she was shocked, SHOCKED that Willow didn't want to go shopping with for serious girl-bonding the next day and tried avoiding Buffy at the party.
And you know, Buffy justifiably received forgiveness and love from her friends (despite their initial anger) because they're friends and they should be compassionate to one another.
He knows Angel and knows he's a hypocrite when it comes to redemption. Fred and Gunn, you summed them up yourself. It's like he kicked a bees nest and complained about getting stung. It's a self-imposed angst-fest.
This was the first time that Angel was really tested. Would Angel act on the whole "Never give up on a soul, that's what I do here. Must forgive people for mistakes. The smallest act of kindness can mean the most" speech if someone actually really hurt *Angel*. Thus far, the Scoobies (absent Xander's sniping) and AI were pretty perfect friends to Angel who never hurt him but just lined up to help him and befriend him. This situation with Wesley (and Connor next season) were two big first tests to see if Angel's got the forbearance that he so earnestly preaches about.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-02-10 02:07 pm (UTC)And it continues with Lilah. Did he feel for her? Sure, but it's only suggested so far as it provokes his gallantry. His freeing her from W&H, subsequently saving her from potential vamping and then attempting to free her from W&H. All great things, but are a testament to his loss and pain. Big overtures, not much in the way of show.
Wesley risking his life twice to save Lilah aren't merely overtures with little "show". Risking your life to save someone is *show* in the sense as a demonstrable, non-phony gesture of love.
I don't even get what's got you bothered about Wesley/Lilah. He was devastated when she died. He risked his life to save her. He convinced AI to give her sanctuary in the hotel when she was injured and on the run from the Beast- and then he felt guilt when she soon died in the hotel at (he first thought Angelus) Faux-delia's hand. He briefly entertained happy thoughts that they were in a relationship- until she betrayed him to hurt Lorne and spy on AI to further her company's apocalyptic goals. I'm not sure what else you want. Do you only recognize romantic gestures if they occur over champagne and candles? I mean, I'd like more Wes/Lilah because it's AtS's best ship by a country mile but I didn't think there was anything notably inferior in the writing for Wesley in the relationship.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-02-11 06:37 pm (UTC)That might possibly be the worst attempted analogy I've seen in quite a long time. A better one might have been Giles completely betraying Buffy by secretly injecting her with poison and then expecting compassion and understanding after it was found out. Wait, he didn't because he knew what he was doing. Would we have felt really, really bad if the gang didn't forgive him? I highly doubt it.
I mean, you're reaching pretty hard, probably because you realize you're not really backing your argument up with anything other WIKIpedia-level editions of BTVS storylines that neglects the lying, attempted murders, disowning and prevailing fears (founded as they were in the fallout) and lack of any betrayal with Wesley attempting to steal someone's kid and take off with it and saying it's the same thing. You could've taken a more correlative situation, like Giles in Helpless, but you chose... that.
Tell you what, we won't waste any more of our figurative breath discussing it and we'll let our unpopular opinions be.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-02-11 07:12 pm (UTC)I selected the Buffy examples because it was Buffy doing some crappy things with very good intentions borne out a desire to protect and her own trauma. Yes, Buffy lied to everyone about their past tormentor/assaulter Angel was back. However, she did so out of a desire to protect Angel even though Angel wasn't in serious danger from the gang (and zero danger from any non-Xander person). For that, she deserves compassion for the lies, recklessness with Sunnydale students' lives in Beauty and Beasts, and the personal betrayal of certainly not telling Giles that Angel was back. The same is true with Wesley. He took Connor in a desperate effort to protect Connor and protect Angel from murdering his son. For that, he deserves compassion and understanding.
The difference between the two is that Wesley's betrayal went horribly and Buffy's ended up going fine. However, you argued that "the whole thing played like he knew what he was getting into even if it didn't go pear-shaped", putting down the gauntlet to judge Wesley's choices independent of the end.
Both actions are far afield from Giles poisoning Buffy....to keep his job. Unlike Buffy and Wesley, Giles betrayed Buffy out of pure self-interest. Giles wasn't out to protect anyone from incipient harm. Moreover, Giles poisoned Buffy with every intent to throw her powerless body in a house to fight a crazy vampire. Meanwhile, Wesley intended to take Connor somewhere safe and raise him with kindness.
Moreover, Giles DID expect a second chance. He said:
GILES
You have to listen to me. Because I have told you this, the test is invalidated. You'll be safe, I promise.
Whatever I have to do, to deal with Kralik and to win back your trust -
Giles says this after he had a chance to explain his version of events to Buffy. Then, Giles pre-supposes that he's going to embark on some path (however difficult and demanding) to repair to his relationship with Buffy and have a second chance. Giles knew that he what he did was awful and he was willing to deal with Kralik and do whatever it takes to get a second chance, but it was all the assumption that there was a path forward with Buffy. He never acts like Buffy's trust isn't unwinnable or like they're not going to work together to take down Kralik or tell off Quentin and he should slink off the court. And Giles proceeds in his relationship with Buffy with utter confidence right from the next episode on.
Moreover, I think Buffy absolutely did the right thing to forgive Giles. Giles already lost the love of his life, was tortured for hours, and devoted lots of time and resources to helping Buffy. As vile as his actions were, I think it's wonderfully forgiving that Buffy took all that into account to forgive Giles. Moreover by forgiving Giles and not shutting him out, Buffy got to continue to enjoy the resources of a trained multi-lingual adult Watcher with means. I think Giles should have helped her more but Buffy really would be hurt in her mission without Giles going forward.
As for Angel shutting Wesley out, Angel should have been absolutely up a creek (or stuck in a sea as the case may be) and his gang should have totally failed without Wesley. However, they all profited off how Wesley arrived as a product of an abusive childhood who borders on masochism who has an unfortunate love for Angel/Fred/Cordelia so they could continue getting Wesley's help even though they shut him out and treated him like crap. If AI was dealing with someone with slightly higher self-esteem or expectations from life, Wesley would have just continued his solo evil-fighting mission and told them to all piss off.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-02-11 08:05 pm (UTC)I didn't insult you. I simply stated what you were doing, which IS what you were doing. Trying to equate a simplified version of S2/S3 BTVS with Wesley's actions. You just said that's what you were doing. *I* actually do sympathize with what Wesley did. But...
Buffy didn't have good intentions when she ran away. She was 1.) expelled from her second school in a year, 2.) wanted for murder, 3.) kicked out by her mom, 4.) left believing no one had her back after Xander put Willow with them, and 5.) just killed a newly ensouled Angel. She didn't have good or bad intentions, just nowhere to go.
When she didn't tell them Angel was back, she still had no belief any of them wouldn't attack him since Angelus tortured Giles, Xander wanted him dead and she believed Willow was with them. This is more equatable with Wes if all this transpired in BatB (and Angel was killing people, she knew about it and covered it up), but it didn't. It's not different because it all turned out OK, it's different because it was at most dereliction of duty, if that, since Oz and Angel are equated in that ep, not a betrayal.
As for Giles, he went to Buffy to say that and offered himself for judgment. Did we see Wes pursue his friends and try to explain himself? I don't think we did, though he may have been put off by the smothering. His stance was *they* should have come to him to get his explanation, but while I get what he was trying to do, that's on him if that's what he wanted. I wasn't comparing motivations for doing it--Giles obviously felt it was justified in some way or he wouldn't have done it--but the expectation of forgiveness.
Which, as the circle comes back around, is my beef with it and something I don't think all the yammering in the world will get us to agree on. It doesn't work for me because the guy who should at least understand (Angel), he seems to give a pass to vs the others who were always been rash and judgmental. Them, he wants understanding from. He puts himself in a non-win situation because like you said, Angel is different when it comes to his stuff. No win there. Gunn, Fred and Cordy. No win there, either. At least if he expected them to come to him to explain himself.
I do apologize if you felt insulted.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-02-11 08:59 pm (UTC)When she didn't tell them Angel was back, she still had no belief any of them wouldn't attack him since Angelus tortured Giles, Xander wanted him dead and she believed Willow was with them. This is more equatable with Wes if all this transpired in BatB (and Angel was killing people, she knew about it and covered it up), but it didn't. It's not different because it all turned out OK, it's different because it was at most dereliction of duty, if that, since Oz and Angel are equated in that ep, not a betrayal.
Just because Angelus tortured Giles doesn't mean that Giles would kill Angel. Just because Buffy believed that Willow wanted Angelus staked before he could raise Acathala (much like Buffy at the time because Buffy *was* off to stake Angelus and told Willow to not bother re-attempting the re-ensoulment) doesn't meant that Buffy had good reasons to believe that Willow would want Angel dead. Heck, there wasn't even probable cause to believe that Xander would kill a souled Angel. True to form, Willow and Giles never attempt to kill a souled Angel; Xander starts but abandons his effort because Xander would stake a Bad Angel without his soul or out to lose his soul again (since he didn't believe Buffy's arguments that Angel was good) but he wouldn't stake an Angel allied with good,.
However, I still get Buffy's paranoia that her friends would stake Angel, even though they didn't really indicate that they'd stake a fully good Angel. Buffy's paranoia had emotional validity because of the severity of Angel's rampage of terror in S2. It's not really anything Willow/Xander/Giles *did* against Angel. It's that Buffy is also shamed by Angel's actions and believed that there was plenty of motive to stake him even with a soul but Buffy loved Angel too much to surrender him to that fate.
To compare the two, Wesley was observing Angel who was high on Connor's blood (since W&H was spiking Angel's blood supply with Connor's blood). Angel acted unusually irrational and angry and lashed out at Connor for crying as babies do. Angel made an awful, scary joke about how it'd be OK if he was trapped in a burnt out room because he could eat Connor. In addition, to the prophetic warnings, big omens of fire and blood, the Loa's warnings, and Holtz's threats to wipe out the whole of AI if Wesley didn't take the baby to safety. Ironically, Buffy hadn't witnessed nearly as frightening dangers to a souled Angel from her friends as Wesley witnessed from Angel towards Connor in Loyalty and the start of Sleep Tight.
Buffy did betray the group by hiding Angel. If a family member of mine hid the murderer of the love of my life and someone who tortured me for hours, I'd feel damned betrayed. If someone lied to me for weeks about their whereabouts, I'd feel betrayed. Buffy actively conspired to avoid bringing Angel to justice to the some of the people that Angel recently hurt the most.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-02-11 09:00 pm (UTC)In the middle of Beauty and the Beast, Wolf!Oz had to be locked in a cage and closely watched by a slayer for the entire night. The gang was investigating to see if Oz was a murderer to then, further evaluate further action to protect the community from Oz in anything ranging from shame (certainly already from Cordelia) to tranquing Wolf!Oz. Meanwhile, Buffy just locked feral!Angel with some ultimately failed chains and left feral!Angel unguarded for large portions of the day. Angel was never treated like a suspect. Instead for a time, all suspect shaming was pointed directly at Oz which humiliated Oz even though Buffy knew of another viable suspect.
So, Buffy absolutely betrayed the group and especially, Giles. Ask Giles in Revelations, I'm sure he'd back me up that he was betrayed. Buffy did it with every intention of protecting Angel. That does make her equitable with Wesley. As opposed to Giles in Helpless who betrayed Buffy to save his career and betrayed Buffy to the point of putting her in lethal danger.
Wesley had lots of good reasons for not approaching the group. First, Wesley lost his voice and he couldn't really talk until the last three eps of S3 which I think represents a week in real time. Angel said before smothering Wesley that he knows that Wesley took Connor to save Connor's life....but that doesn't matter since Angel still felt that he can murder Wesley. Then when Wesley still couldn't talk, Fred came by to the hospital and re-iterated that they knew that Wesley took Connor with good intentions but Wesley can't come by the hotel or Angel will finish what he started and murder Wesley which is an unbelievably credible threat. And Fred tearfullly begged Wesley to stay away or Angel will kill him. Then when Gunn came to ask for Fred's cure, Gunn basically said that he doesn't want to hear anything from Wesley other than Fred's cure. "Look, I don't have time to get into
it with you. I don't even wanna be here."
So unlike Giles, Wesley physically couldn't say his side of the story at first, he was barred from coming to the Hyperion to explain on penalty of murder, and he had three members of the team say that his side of the story is meaningless. I suppose that Wesley could have opened up sometime in S4, but IMO, Wesley had every reason to believe that no one in AI (save Fred) wanted to hear from him on a personal level and he should just work with them to defeat the apocalyptic threats in a very cold peace. That is until Angel laundered Wesley's brain of all of it at the end of S4.