I think people put way too much stock into the foreshadowing in Restless. There really isn't that much and it's for S5. Having the major plotpoints for the next season ready by the previous ones ending isn't unheard of. It's common practice.
I thought that the hints for season 5's arc dating right back to Graduation Day were cleverly done, but yeah I agree that it's overstated just how much foreshadowing Restless actually contains otherwise for the characters. It felt to me like it was more about Joss having fun exploring the characters inner thoughts, but fan lore did seem to turn it into absolutely everything in it having a secret hidden meaning of what was to come, but really that takes a whole lot of fan-wanking (oh Spike was on the swings learning to be a watcher as foreshadowing of his training with the potentials in season 7, of course) rather than it all clearly coming together when you go back and watch that episode at the end of the series. I do love Restless as an episode, but yeah it was definitely mostly about having fun with dream logic IMO
Jenny's death is what I find a little bit over-hyped actually. Like of course the death scene itself was extremely-done, but come on at all the talk of the show being daring enough to kill off a major character and a fan favourite. I'm sure that most fans liked Jenny well enough, but IMO people really exaggerate when they act like it was such a brave choice to kill off one of the main characters. Seriously, Jenny Calendar?
Jenny's death is what I find a little bit over-hyped actually. Like of course the death scene itself was extremely-done, but come on at all the talk of the show being daring enough to kill off a major character and a fan favourite. I'm sure that most fans liked Jenny well enough, but IMO people really exaggerate when they act like it was such a brave choice to kill off one of the main characters. Seriously, Jenny Calendar?
Yeah. TBH, I've always thought Passion was overrated as an episode and Jenny's death kinda blown up. I wasn't in fandom back then, but I just have a hard time imagining Jenny was *that* beloved, you know? Even as a teen watching it I thought she had Plot Bait written all over her. I was surprised at the graphic nature for a teen show on the WB part of it but not that she died.
I mean, I don't know. I don't want to dismiss feelings about it, but I do wonder if some of it isn't an 'my favs always die, woe is me!' sort of thing. Modern fandom seems to want to place more importance on this stuff than there was at the time, I feel like. I've seen Kendra called a fan favorite and I'm like 'What?'
Yeah Angelus needed to kill someone that mattered to the characters for his time as a villain to have any impact, so if anything Jenny was the safest and most obvious choice. You couldn't kill any of Buffy's closest friends or her mother (well not at that time anyway when she was still 16/17) without drastically changing her character, but killing off a favourite teacher and Giles's girlfriend was just far enough removed from Buffy that it wasn't going to seriously change the narrative or anything to lose her, while still giving the show a memorable death sequence and a lot of angsty moments.
Arguably they did something similar in the pilot actually with Xander's and Willow's friend being killed off to demonstrate the threat that the vampires represented, although obviously Passion handles the aftermath far far better :P But yeah I don't get why it's developed this rep as something that nobody saw coming, the Angelus arc in general did steer the show in a much darker direction obv and the chase sequence and neck snapping were incredibly memorable, but I wouldn't have thought that the choice to kill Jenny in itself was such a gasp-worthy ohnotheydidnt one, even though that's more or less how it gets spoken of
And lol I have noticed that Kendra seems surprisingly popular among fandom on tumblr, but yeah she always felt like the most thinly-drawn caricature that Joss could come up with to me, rather than a fully developed character :shrugs:
I think I have to have my fix at least 3-4 times per year. I'm gonna have to rebuy the seasons at some point. I already did season 1 and I think one disc of season 3 is starting to have issues lol
Lol I've never had issues with DVDs, but that always used to happen with my old VHS tapes skipping at my favourite parts after I kept rewinding them :P
I thought they were really reaching to see OMWF as groundbreaking. I realize that it's a beloved episode (though not by me). However, they pointed out myriad reasons why it wasn't groundbreaking so... yeah, I think it was included simply because it's "the" episode everyone (save me) adores.
That being said, it was great to see the show get discussed and loved, because all in all, the show IS groundbreaking and amazing and wondrous and like no other ever.
Oh yeah that's true, shows like Xena, The Simpsons, and Ally Mcbeal had already had one-off musical episodes. I suppose that it's just become the expected thing to include Hush, The Body, and OMWF in any kind of lists of iconic Buffy episodes, just because they were such a departure from the Buffy norm and everyone always expects them to get a mention, but if we're talking about breaking new ground then Xena was the first that time
Yep, it felt like she had plot device written all over her from the moment that Joss tied her in with Angel's curse, in hindsight it's really not that shocking that she was the one member of the cast that they chose to be killed by Angelus
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rosecarmine
(no subject)
Date: 2015-12-23 08:13 pm (UTC):'D
(no subject)
Date: 2015-12-23 09:26 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-12-23 08:23 pm (UTC)I think people put way too much stock into the foreshadowing in Restless. There really isn't that much and it's for S5. Having the major plotpoints for the next season ready by the previous ones ending isn't unheard of. It's common practice.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-12-23 09:44 pm (UTC)Jenny's death is what I find a little bit over-hyped actually. Like of course the death scene itself was extremely-done, but come on at all the talk of the show being daring enough to kill off a major character and a fan favourite. I'm sure that most fans liked Jenny well enough, but IMO people really exaggerate when they act like it was such a brave choice to kill off one of the main characters. Seriously, Jenny Calendar?
(no subject)
Date: 2015-12-23 09:59 pm (UTC)Jenny's death is what I find a little bit over-hyped actually. Like of course the death scene itself was extremely-done, but come on at all the talk of the show being daring enough to kill off a major character and a fan favourite. I'm sure that most fans liked Jenny well enough, but IMO people really exaggerate when they act like it was such a brave choice to kill off one of the main characters. Seriously, Jenny Calendar?
Yeah. TBH, I've always thought Passion was overrated as an episode and Jenny's death kinda blown up. I wasn't in fandom back then, but I just have a hard time imagining Jenny was *that* beloved, you know? Even as a teen watching it I thought she had Plot Bait written all over her. I was surprised at the graphic nature for a teen show on the WB part of it but not that she died.
I mean, I don't know. I don't want to dismiss feelings about it, but I do wonder if some of it isn't an 'my favs always die, woe is me!' sort of thing. Modern fandom seems to want to place more importance on this stuff than there was at the time, I feel like. I've seen Kendra called a fan favorite and I'm like 'What?'
(no subject)
Date: 2015-12-24 08:17 am (UTC)Arguably they did something similar in the pilot actually with Xander's and Willow's friend being killed off to demonstrate the threat that the vampires represented, although obviously Passion handles the aftermath far far better :P But yeah I don't get why it's developed this rep as something that nobody saw coming, the Angelus arc in general did steer the show in a much darker direction obv and the chase sequence and neck snapping were incredibly memorable, but I wouldn't have thought that the choice to kill Jenny in itself was such a gasp-worthy ohnotheydidnt one, even though that's more or less how it gets spoken of
And lol I have noticed that Kendra seems surprisingly popular among fandom on tumblr, but yeah she always felt like the most thinly-drawn caricature that Joss could come up with to me, rather than a fully developed character :shrugs:
(no subject)
Date: 2015-12-23 08:48 pm (UTC)I think the more we'll watch it, the more we'll actually catch on all of it.
On my part, there are still things I'm getting (understanding) now and I've watched this show a thousand times over.
I love these top 10s however. Sometimes, I don't necessarily agree with their choices of episodes but I like it anyway.
(no subject)
Date: 2015-12-23 09:47 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-12-23 09:55 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-12-24 08:21 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-12-25 07:49 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-12-23 09:16 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-12-23 09:46 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-12-23 09:58 pm (UTC)Gabrielle
(no subject)
Date: 2015-12-24 08:18 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2015-12-24 08:23 am (UTC)That being said, it was great to see the show get discussed and loved, because all in all, the show IS groundbreaking and amazing and wondrous and like no other ever.
Gabrielle
(no subject)
Date: 2015-12-24 08:38 am (UTC)And agreed :)
(no subject)
Date: 2015-12-24 08:56 am (UTC)Also, 100% agreed with your rant above about Jenny Calendar. Fridging the Romani woman was neither bold nor edgy.
... Aside from that, slay!!!!!!!!!!
(no subject)
Date: 2015-12-27 09:25 am (UTC)