(no subject)

[frelling_tralk]

Okay so apparently there's a movement on tumblr lately discussing how women get punished for sex in Buffy, and that therefore Joss is no feminist. Yes it's a very old argument at this point lol, but I wanted to respond because I don't really agree with that. Obviously people have linked Buffy's sexual experiences together and seen messages that the show is apparently putting across, but when watching the show I never got the sense that we were supposed to see Buffy as being deserving of punishment for having sex

The experiences with Angel and Parker were experiences that a lot of young girls go through on the journey into adulthood, and that seemed to be all that the writers were going for there. There was never any message or lecturing on how Buffy should have waited longer before sleeping with Parker, Buffy feels like a fool for falling for Parker's lines and beats herself up over it sure, but her friends all comfort her and say that Parker is the jerk. It's made very clear that Parker was the only one in the wrong for how he played Buffy, Willow laughs in his face in Bear Bad over what an obvious player he is, Riley punches him in the face for making degrading remarks about using Buffy, and caveslayer Buffy bops him on the head with a wooden stick

There were also never any lecturing or finger-wagging in Innocence along the lines of "what were you thinking to sleep with someone at your age", it was all about the heartbreak of first love and the guy changing after you've slept with him. None of Buffy's friends ever say that she was in the wrong for sex with Angel (Xander later questions Buffy letting her heart get in the way with Angelus, but never for the actual sex), in fact Willow was encouraging Buffy to seize the day. Joyce (who doesn't have all the facts when she meets "stalker Angelus") does give Buffy a motherly lecture on how she doesn't understand Buffy's bad judgement in sleeping with someone so clearly unstable, but the more knowledge Giles tells Buffy that he knows that she wants to hear that she did a bad thing, but all she will get from him is his respect and admiration. Is that not the exact opposite of shaming Buffy for her sexual choices?

And there are complaints that Buffy was never allowed to be in a positive sexual relationship, but isn't that exactly what she does enjoy with Riley in season 4 before viewers complained about how bored they were by that? Their first sexual encounter is portrayed very positively in The I In Team with them both turned on after patrolling, and in Where The Wild Things Are the whole point of that episode was that the spirits being released were caused by an evil woman who repressed and shamed children for perfectly healthy and normal sexual desires, not that Buffy and Riley were the ones at fault for having too much sex! Buffy and Riley were not punished or blamed for it, it was played as a joke that they got so wrapped up in the sex they were having that they ignored everything else, not anything that the gang seriously criticised them for.

If anything Buffy did a whole lot better than Angel who was literally cursed, he wasn't able to control himself from turning into a soulless monster after a single sexual encounter with Buffy (and later Cordelia on Ats sort of in Awakening), yet everyone connects the sex is bad message from their encounter with Buffy's character? Buffy was the one who could move on to sex with Riley and talk about how happy she was with him, while Angel complained that he wasn't "allowed". Ats was the show that joked about sex being bad, for precisely that reason that Angel is terrified to let go and be intimate with anyone, yet I've mostly only seen viewers make connections with Buffy's character when they complain about the message that sex is a bad thing?

And I think it's important to remember that Buffy's sexual relationships with Angel and Spike were disastrous mostly because she was having sex with vampires (sex with ice cream is a memorable part of Buffy and human Angel's perfect day in I Will Remember You, but never connected with Angel's decision to reverse time), something that was equally seen as a terrible decision when Riley sneaks off in his downward spiral to get sucked on by them. In the Buffyverse vampires are supposed to be soulless monsters more or less, so it's hardly going to be portrayed as a positive for anyone (male or female) to start sleeping with one whilst in the midst of a serious depression. To me that's not the show giving the message that ANY sexual encounter that a woman has is bad

Also Anya was never shamed for having sex, she initiates the relationship in The Harsh Light Of Day by approaching Xander to say that she can't stop thinking about him, let's have sex to get it out of our system. And when they do get into a relationship she's usually portrayed as having a bigger sexual appetite than Xander, she complains in Where The Wild Things Are about why didn't they have sex last night, in The I In Team she makes an off-hand comment about how she and Xander have enjoyed spanking, in Into The Woods she tells Buffy about how much fun she and Xander had with the training equipment room and the vaulting horse. Yeah the other characters got embarrassed with Anya talking about her sex life so openly, as they always did with any of Anya's lack of social graces, but she was never slut-slamed for it that I recall. She has several one-night stands with Xander in season 7 after their relationship ends, before they eventually agree to leave it as that, hardly what you would expect from a show that disapproved of casual sex

Willow's first sexual experience with Oz was also portrayed very positively with them having another session in Oz's van right before the graduation ceremony. They do eventually break-up over Oz's werewolf side in Wild At Heart, but it's never remotely implied as being a punishment for sex, Willow even talks to Xander in that episode about being concerned at Oz losing interest in having sex with her and what that means for their relationship.

And okay granted the show pushed the good girl/bad girl rather heavily in season 3 with Faith, but it's not like reformed Faith suddenly swears off sex! She's very flirty with Spike in Touched and talks about her various past kinky sexual encounters, and then in End Of Days Principal Wood has to convince Faith not to just dismiss their sex as nothing more than a one-night stand, but he never slut shames her for it. If anything the show plays it jokingly when Faith gets insulted at Wood saying that she's not sexually experienced in comparison to him, she starts to unbutton her pants and say that we're having sex again right now if that last experience wasn't memorable enough for you

Without all of the off-screen discussion of the sex is bad messages that viewers have picked up on, I wonder how many young girls watching Buffy would really get the feeling that the show is telling them that any kind of sex is bad? At worst maybe the messages of Surprise/Innocence might be to wait until you are really sure that you're ready and know everything about the guy well enough (how awful), but who was ever going to take away the message that Buffy shouldn't have been enjoying a sexual relationship with her college boyfriend, that she shouldn't have had sex with Angel in IWRY, that Willow and Oz shouldn't have had sex in Graduation Day, that Xander should have never slept with Anya?

Comments

[gehirnstuerm.livejournal.com]

Amen to that!

I don't have anything to add actually. It may appear like Buffy is punished at first glance, but I agree with everything you said on that matter.

I actually started watching Buffy back in the day when I was pretty much the same age as the characters and literally grew up with them. And I never had the feeling that the show was trying to tell me having sex was inherently a bad thing.

Since BtVS is pretty much the love of my life, show-wise, there have been many re-watches since the show ended. And I still don't think sex is portrayed as bad and that Buffy is punished for having sex. It's not as simple as that.

Anyway, great post! It was an interesting read :)

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Thanks :)

And I never had the feeling that the show was trying to tell me having sex was inherently a bad thing.

I never really gave all that much thought before to all the jokes and comments on Buffy's sexual encounters always proving disastrous, but yeah it doesn't really add up IMO when you think about it? Buffy had *plenty* of consequence-free sex with Riley, as well as IWRY's perfect day with Angel, the one that they never got to have after Innocence, including sex. The times of huge emotional ramifications were when she slept with vampires, so maybe that was the show's message, but I don't see that you can say that sex always leads to bad things on Bts and that Buffy was never allowed to enjoy a healthy sexual relationship. She slept with Riley for months when she was at college!

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Is that not the exact opposite of shaming Buffy for her sexual choices?

Is that what he says? He calls it rash and says while he *could* condemn her for it, he's not going to. It's never read to me that Buffy wasn't wrong to sleep with her boyfriend, just that Giles isn't going to tear her down for it.

I've always side-eyed the question until the comics. Now, I think it might have some merit. I suppose it has to do with how you look at the trope. "Punishment for sex" is kinda not terribly accurate, I think. The trope, as I've always seen it, is "punishment for sex with people the writer doesn't like". The woman punished is alway dating the guy who picks on the protagonist. It goes hand-in-hand with women who like sex are slutty...except if they like sex with the writer or writer-insert. This is fine.

And that's BTVS in many ways and perhaps why they're seeing it? Faith and Anya can have sex with Xander. No problem. Anya has sex with Spike and she's disgusting. Same with Buffy. If it was just left at that, you could say it's just Xander ranting. But then he's proven right (as was with Angel) in the bathroom.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Hmm I just looked up the transcript from that scene:

Buffy: But... this is all my fault.

Giles: I don't believe it is. Do you want me to wag my finger at you and tell you, you acted rashly? You did, and I can. But I know you loved him, and he has proven more than once that he loved you. You couldn't have known what would happen. The coming months are going to be very hard - I suspect on all of us. But if you're looking for guilt, Buffy, I'm not your man. All you will have from me is my support... and my respect.

So I suppose that it's fair to say that Giles *did* believe that it was a rash decision for Buffy to sleep with a vampire, but still I would argue that what viewers were meant to take away from that scene was that Giles never lost any of his respect for Buffy. (I mean not that he should have obviously, but while viewers see Innocence as carrying a message that Buffy deserves punishment for having sex, that scene with Giles is arguing the exact opposite if he's going to explicitly say that he still supports and respects Buffy and that it wasn't her fault.


It goes hand-in-hand with women who like sex are slutty...except if they like sex with the writer or writer-insert. This is fine.

Xander did slut-shame Anya in Entropy and was really awful about it, but at the same time that scene said more about how Xander saw Spike IMO, as his whole focus was on how Anya could sleep with that thing. I'm not gonna defend Xander's words in Entropy, but I never saw the shows focus as being on Anya or Buffy being really slutty to want to sleep with Spike, it was about Xander responding to them sleeping with someone whom he saw as less than human. And while the show didn't condemn Xander's actions there as much as I would have liked, I didn't get the impression that we were supposed to agree with him, or that the SR scene was linked to that. If anything Entropy spend some time on humanising Spike earlier when he talked to Anya about how it hurt him to be seen as an "evil soulless thing", so Xander storming over with his stake and asking how Anya could have sex with "that" hardly put him in a good light that the audience were going to agree with

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

That's the thing about it, though. Why say it was rash? He loved her, she loved him. They were involved for a good bit of time romantically and the outcome was completely unforeseeable. I don't think it's intended, either, but the way it's worded it could definitely be read as implied. It being unintended might actually be a greater indictment. Especially when the show itself continues to hammer home that it was the sex, the sex, the sex, even though that's not really what was shown in Innocence.

being really slutty to want to sleep with Spike

No, it didn't, he says she (they) are disgusting, yada, yada, yada.

Xander storming over with his stake and asking how she could have sex with "that" hardly put him in a good light the the audience were going to agree with

Then they have the Buffy-Xander scene in Seeing Red where he continues on about him being soulless, he never forgot what he was, what was she thinking, etc. Then the lack of soul and the obtainment of it was the point of the attempted rape. Then he rants to Dawn about the girls being blind to Spike. Yes, I do think the purpose of all that was to prove Xander right. It sure didn't prove him wrong any more than his disapproval Bangel was.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

That's the thing about it, though. Why say it was rash? He loved her, she loved him.

I interpreted that as Giles coming at it from the POV that Buffy sleeping with a vampire could be seen as a rash decision, if she had slept with a human like Xander then clearly he wouldn't have felt the need to comment, but this involved his Watcher duties more and Buffy was waiting for him to say that she really messed up in getting involved with Angel in the first place. That was how I read it anyway, whether that was the intention or not, who knows :P


Then they have the Buffy-Xander scene in Seeing Red where he continues on about him being soulless, he never forgot what he was, what was she thinking, etc. Then the lack of soul and the obtainment of it was the point of the attempted rape. Then he rants to Dawn about the girls being blind to Spike. Yes, I do think the purpose of all that was to prove Xander right. It sure didn't prove him wrong any more than his disapproval Bangel was.

Xander was at one of his lowest points in Entropy, he completely overreacted and spoke to Anya disgracefully (also the joke was on him for saying that he never forgot what Spike was when he worked alongside him all summer, yet Entropy was all about the consequences of Xander completely forgotting about Anya being a former vengeance demon when he left her at the altar). But then Xander was always portrayed as the member of the group that had jealous flare-ups and spoke without thinking, he spend years bitching about Angel and was frequently shown as having judged him too harshly without having all the facts, he was ready to stake Angel in Revelation even after Buffy told him that Angel's soul was back for one. So I don't see Xander's words in Entropy as representing what the writers thought, so much as them attempting to accurately portray how a character like Xander really would have reacted to discovering that the women in his life have been sleeping with a vampire that he despises. Spike bringing up that Buffy slept with him too was meant to be seen as an attempt at defending Anya even IMO, which suggests that the writers were fully aware that the audience would not necessarily be on Xander's side in his little tirade

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

if she had slept with a human like Xander then clearly he wouldn't have felt the need to comment,

Exactly the point, though. Like I said, it's how you look at the trope, I guess. I just find it hard to believe that Giles who never denounced the relationship wouldn't have ever thought they'd sleep together. Maybe that's why him calling it rash has always stood out to me.

the writers were fully aware that the audience would not necessarily be on Xander's side in his little tirade

And yet, they go on to write Seeing Red the way they do. Sure, he owns up to being an ass...after she's sexually assaulted.

It certainly wouldn't be the first time they had him be a mouthpiece and offensively say what we're meant to take from the story (DMP, ItW).

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Exactly the point, though. Like I said, it's how you look at the trope, I guess.

I do think that the show wasn't a fan of human/soulless vampire relationships, and David Fury for one did state that it would speak volumes about the main cast if they were to return the affection of a vampire without a soul, aka an unrepentant serial killer. I'm just not sure how it's a comment on women needing to be punished for not sleeping with the writer inserts. Xander's first almost sexual experience in Teacher's Pet sees him nearly get eaten by a giant insect, his love affair with Ampata in Inca Mummy Girl sees him almost get the life drained out of him, and finally he gets strung up by a demon in First Date. So it wasn't a case of singling the female members of the cast out and shaming them for their choices, in general the Buffyverse liked to play around with the idea of be careful who you're dating/be absolutely sure that they're not a giant bug before you go to their house and accept a drink from them, but to me that was never about sexually policing the female characters and trying to tell us that having any sex at all always leads to bad consequences. All of the female regulars did have positive sexual experiences at one time or another, so if sex is bad was supposed to be a message to take from the show, then it was never a consistent one


(DMP, ItW).

Oh I definitely think that he was meant to be a mouthpiece in Into The Woods unfortunately, but I saw Dead Man's Party as being another example of Xander's characterisation often being quite flawed in how he could unfairly lash out, the quote on Buffy fleeing town over "boy troubles" for one!

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

I think much of it is about adding drama, tbh. And when you sexualize everything like they did on the show, you're going to end up with unintended consequences and interpretations. If you expand actual sex to almost-romances, then there is a lot more to talk about (Reptile Boy, IRYJ, Ben, etc). Like I said, until the end of S8, I was sort of skeptical of it. Now, I don't think it's really that far-fetched.

Yeah, that's what Fury thought, that it was a bad, bad thing, something women shouldn't want. And they showed why on the show, you know?

but I saw Dead Man's Party as being another example of Xander's characterisation often being quite flawed in how he could unfairly lash out, the quote on Buffy fleeing town over "boy troubles" for one!

But how was he proven wrong in the narrative? Sure, *we* know he's wrong. But we also knew he was wrong in ItW as well and it's clearly what we were supposed to think. Considering no one ever contradicts him, I do think we were supposed to agree with him in S3 also.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I think much of it is about adding drama, tbh. And when you sexualize everything like they did on the show, you're going to end up with unintended consequences and interpretations.

True, I just feel like people find it easy to make all of these connection (the metaphor in Innocence was obviously a huge part of Buffy's narrative), but if you watch the show in context then there's plenty of sex-positivity to go round, so I can't see why it seems to be so widely accepted that it all adds up to saying that sex is bad and has terrible consequences every time. (I can't comment on season 8 though obviously!)

Yeah, that's what Fury thought, that it was a bad, bad thing, something women shouldn't want. And they showed why on the show, you know?

But that wasn't about Fury saying that Buffy shouldn't have sex with Spike and what a bad girl that would make her, he was responding in season 5 to viewers asking for a Spuffy romance, saying that it would speak badly of Buffy's character if she were to return the feelings of someone who had no conscience or remorse. Everyone has different views on that obviously, but his focus was on the morality of falling for Spike as a person


But how was he proven wrong in the narrative? Sure, *we* know he's wrong. But we also knew he was wrong in ItW as well and it's clearly what we were supposed to think. Considering no one ever contradicts him, I do think we were supposed to agree with him in S3 also.

To me it was all in the portrayal and the lines that he was given, in the high school years he is often given very obviously petty motives for hating Angel, and in DMP we know that he's partly pissed because he's got a crush on Buffy and hated her getting involved with Angel in the first place. Just as in Entropy he's obviously jealous and angry, so he's lashing out at everyone. Whereas he's presented as wise and all-knowing in ITW, and speaking from a supposedly objective POV. Obviously the viewer can point to Xander's other motives for speaking so highly of Riley as a boyfriend for Buffy, but in that case I don't think that you can necessarily say that the writers intended for that to come across, whereas in season 3 we've already seen Buffy's pain and isolation and so the narrative encourages us to side with her when her friends start lashing out without listening to her side of the story. I get a similar feel in Entropy when Xander speaks to Anya so cruelly, just a couple of episodes later he's surprised to find out how wrong he was when she tells him that she never slept with Spike to hurt him, that it was for solace

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

True, I just feel like people find it easy to make all of these connection (the metaphor in Innocence was obviously a huge part of Buffy's narrative)

I think much of it stems from the idea of who Buffy is supposed to represent (the blonde girl who's punished for sex in horror movies) and then...that happens with Angel. Whatever the metaphor or whatever the characters say, whether is fair or not, the end result is the same. She still ends up emotionally traumatized for what was an innocuous act. Then they basically did the same storyline with Parker: nice guy turns into an asshole after you sleep with him. Other than Giles, which can be read a couple ways, I don't think they really did enough to say what happened wasn't her fault. It's still brought up and used against her (inadvertently) as late as the end of S4.

Whether it's right or not, I don't know. We can only guess what authors actually intend. I can totally see people being put off by it, though, especially when everyone, myself included, are probably over-thinking it.

But that wasn't about Fury saying that Buffy shouldn't have sex with Spike and what a bad girl that would make her

But it ultimately ends up being the same thing, no? The morality of Buffy sleeping with him was a major part of it.

Whereas he's presented as wise and all-knowing in ITW, and speaking from a supposedly objective POV.

I don't know. At the time I didn't see that at all. I saw it as him projecting his issues with his relationship with Anya onto Buffy. Similar with S3, yes, he's lashing out but considering how everything in that ep played out and at the end Buffy's apologizing to Willow, I do think we're supposed to see him as right there. And in Entropy, it's never implied that he's less disgusted with it after Anya tells him that. He's still quite indignant about it with Dawn.

But it could all just be the mess that was the end of S6. :P They didn't want any more nastiness dredged up, so everything kinda gets handwaved over.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I think much of it stems from the idea of who Buffy is supposed to represent (the blonde girl who's punished for sex in horror movies) and then...that happens with Angel. Whatever the metaphor or whatever the characters say, whether is fair or not, the end result is the same. She still ends up emotionally traumatized for what was an innocuous act.

I guess that's what I'm stuck on, that it feels to me like people are interpreting most of the show's attitude to sex in relation to Innocence, just because that was such an infamous part of the show. I just feel like you can't then write the show's attitude towards female sexuality off completely and read every Buffy sexual encounter through that lens, like with people on tumblr making arguments on look at how Buffy's sexual appetite was the one at fault again for the spirits released in Where The Wild Things Are, even though that's clearly not what that episode was saying at all


I don't think they really did enough to say what happened wasn't her fault.

Was the sex held against Buffy? Admitedly it's been a few years since my last rewatch and I may be missing some references, but I don't remember any of them ever blaming Buffy for sleeping with Angel in the first place, rather any later blame seemed to be solely focused on Buffy's inaction as a slayer? When the gang find out about Buffy kissing Angel again in Revalations, the most anger comes from Xander saying that she should have stopped Angelus sooner before he killed Miss Calendar, and later Giles pointing out that Angel tortured me and you still kept his return from me.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

like with people on tumblr making arguments on look at how Buffy's sexual appetite was the one at fault again for the spirits released in Where The Wild Things Are, even though that's clearly not what that episode was saying at all

Well, it was. No, it wasn't what the episode was trying to say. The episode says the real fault was with the old woman, but in terms of effect, that's kinda irrelevant. It *was* Buffy and Riley's sexing that fueled the ghosts. It's like rahirah said below, text vs subtext. Stating that something is unfair doesn't change the fact that it happened.

Was the sex held against Buffy? Admitedly it's been a few years since my last rewatch and I may be missing some references, but I don't remember any of them ever blaming Buffy for sleeping with Angel in the first place, rather any later blame seemed to be solely focused on Buffy's inaction as a slayer? When the gang find out about Buffy kissing Angel again in Revalations, the most anger comes from Xander saying that she should have stopped Angelus sooner before he killed Miss Calendar, and later Giles pointing out that Angel tortured me and you still kept his return from me.

It all stems from the same thing. Do they say it was all her fault for sleeping with him? No. But it's implied with all that goes along with it because by doing so, her judgment is flawed. It's a just a continuation of Giles telling her she acted rashly, then backtalks around by saying he could blame her, but he isn't going to. It's not that he can't, he just doesn't. When Xander tells Riley about it, it pretty much states it plainly. I mean, that's how it all started. It all spawns from that single act. That's probably why the rest of the show is viewed in the context of Innocence. Now, I'm not blaming you for what happened, but if you hadn't done this to begin with... They do the same thing in SR. No, no we don't blame Buffy for what happened, except they link the two in words. "Something I should have done a long time ago."

Of course it's all been argued before, but I think it's still getting kicked around because as Joss produces more and more work, it seems Buffy is the odd ball out in terms of feminism. People are looking at it much more critically than they used to.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Just to clarify, I agree the show isn't really all that sex negative. I just think it's really preachy about who and who isn't an acceptable partner, which I think in some ways is a lot worse.

Also I agree that the point of WtWTA isn't that sex is bad. Just the opposite. But the way it's presented, it reads like a morality tale. It's like Beer Bad. Now that I think of it, that ep is really just Beer Bad with sex instead of beer. BB doesn't say beer is bad, really. Just enchanted beer. Yet the audience sees it being anti-beer because the beer, like the sex in WtWTA is the driving force behind the plot.

And lastly (for this comment, anyway), I wonder if people read Buffy's sex life like they do is because all the bad stuff is shown and any good stuff is just told. We're *told* Buffy and Riley have a good sex life. However every scene that's shown has a negative connotation involved. Even their first time which was supposed to be hot ends with Maggie watching them on video.

[endeni]

Oh, very interesting thoughts...

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

It got a bit long-winded towards the end heh, thanks for reading :)

[rahirah]

I think the thing is that what you're talking about is the text, and what the Tumblr essay (assuming we read the same one) is talking about is the subtext. It's true that in the text the female characters aren't shamed for having sex, and I'm sure that if you asked the writers what their intent was, they'd say they never intended a general Sex Is Bad (Especially If You're Female) message.

But on the other hand, more often than not, when a female character has sex, something awful happens shortly thereafter. I don't think that was deliberate, necessarily, but it is kind of a pattern, and worth talking about.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I think we probably did read the same one, I'm never sure if it's okay to link to tumblr from LJ or not? (I can't talk to people on tumblr in the same way as I can here, or I would have responded on tumblr)

And while I agree that it's doubtful that the writers ever intended to say that sex was bad, I don't really get it in subtext either that female characters were especially shamed? It would be interesting if there was an exact list of all the sexual encounters on Buffy and how often something awful happens directly afterwards, because off-hand it's mostly Innocence that seems like the big example to me, and then I guess the Spuffy sex from season 6? Otherwise the female characters on Buffy all seemed to have healthy sex lifes most of the time from what I remember, although Buffy obviously had more relationship trauma than most. But to me it's stretching it a bit when people say that Buffy never had sex without consequences, or suggest that Where The Wild Things Are was supposed to reflect badly on Buffy and Riley enjoying sex, even though that episode had the exact opposite message

[rahirah]

Well, I don't think it's shaming, really. To me it's more like "Sexual desire is scary and dangerous, and giving in to it is generally a bad idea." Male sexual desire makes men into monsters. Female sexual desire is dangerous in that it seduces men into giving in to their monstrous side. (Even Oz and Willow have that one -- it's sexual jealousy over Willow which makes Oz unable to control his wolf side.)

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

This is probably nitpicking, but while I agree that there was an obvious male metaphor in Oz having a beast inside that he eventually couldn't control, I saw it as really being emotional pain that caused Oz to lash out? He spend his first night back just talking and connecting with Willow, only to realise that she and Tara were now an item after his wolf side smelled them on one another.

I would agree that there could be an unfortunate message of females seducing men into giving in to their monstrous side if Oz's werewolf side had emerged after a night of sex with Willow, but instead the message I got from it was that Oz couldn't control the wolf inside of him when he was in emotonal pain at the possibility of losing Willow. He presumedly had felt sexual desire for Willow throughout the relationship with no issues, it was only after he came back into town and picked up on Tara's connection with Willow that he could no longer control himself

[rahirah]

But the reason Oz was in danger of losing Willow was that she'd entered into a new sexual/romantic relationship. I really don't think Oz was jealous of Tara just because she was Willow's friend.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I do agree that Oz picked up on W/T being an item, but I just don't see the message of female sexuality being a dangerous thing from that. I guess I'm saying that, even in subtext or as an unintentional message, I don't believe that viewers are going to watch New Moon Rising and make any unfortunate connection that it was sexual desire that made Oz lose control in Willow's presence. It was a metaphor for men having a beast inside of them that they can't always control yes, but the way that plot arc was handled was never linked to Willow seducing him into giving in to that side of himself, or Willow inadvertently doing anything wrong. Oz got his hopes up on them getting back together, and then his emotions went haywire after he was confronted with the fact that Willow had moved on

[livejournal.livejournal.com]

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[velvetwhip.livejournal.com]

This is really interesting. I already have complicated thoughts on Buffy (the show) and sex, and this is now adding another layer to the mix...


Gabrielle

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

:)

[sabotabby]

I really felt like it was some of the most positive and realistic depictions of sex on TV.

I don't know what people want in terms of healthy relationships. There were a few: Willow and Oz, Willow and Tara, Willow and Kennedy (I guess), Buffy and Riley even though it sucked, Xander and Anya. Yes, most of those ended, but it's not exactly healthy for everyone to marry the people they dated in high school. I thought it was good that no one was slut-shamed but that characters made mistakes and things went badly as a result.

Contrast that with Firefly, where Wash and Zoe completely had a healthy married relationship. They were both adults, though; it can be assumed that they'd already made their mistakes.

I can take a lot of criticism of Joss Whedon and his feminist credentials or lack thereof, but I wouldn't say that Buffy is an example that puts him in a bad light.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I thought it was good that no one was slut-shamed but that characters made mistakes and things went badly as a result.

Yes, that's pretty much how I see it too. Obviously the Buffy/Angelus fallout was a big one, but I find it puzzling when people argue that something went wrong every time that Buffy had sex, or that the series failed in not having Buffy in a healthy sexual relationship to end the show with. So now it's anti-feminist for Buffy to remain single and decide to take the time on finding out who she is as a person?!

I'm not going to touch Angel and their weird obsession with mystical pregnancies, but yeah Buffy and Firefly pretty openly embraced women's sexuality IMO. Relationships can go wrong of course, but it's not like both Buffy and Willow didn't also spend time in stable relationships with healthy sex lives during the course of the series

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Barb has an interesting point, but overall I thought that sex was treated pretty fairly. Sometimes something awful happened after sex was had, but something awful happened every week, regardless of the sex-having.

Buffy definitely got the worst (and best, imo) of the show, sex-wise, but she is the exact opposite of the horror-movie girl who dies after sex. Feminism means different things to different people, of course, but Buffy gets a wide spectrum of sexual experiences and she is still the hero right up to the end, so I can't see how this indicates lack of feminism.

Like infinitewhale, I'm not including the comics in any argument in defense of feminism, and like you not AtS either.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Sometimes something awful happened after sex was had, but something awful happened every week, regardless of the sex-having.

Definitely! And yeah, I never got the message that Buffy should have remained chaste because of having her fair share of disastrous sexual encounters, it just seemed to be part of her growing up most of the time? Buffy was never judged for sleeping with Parker after just a couple of dates, and then Buffy and Riley were going at it for most of season 4, it was relationship drama that caused their season 5 break-up. Even with Spuffy obviously coming from Buffy not being in a good place at the time, IMO it's not like the show then took the view that the sex was completely the problem? In season 7 there are jokes to the affect of Buffy remembering having a comfy time in Spike's crypt (Potential episode), and the focus was more on Buffy regretting her time with Spike in season 6 because of her behaviour and believing that she behaved like a monster, rather than because she acted like "a slut"

Wednesday, February 11 - Thursday, February 12

[livejournal.livejournal.com]

User rahirah referenced to your post from Wednesday, February 11 - Thursday, February 12 (http://su-herald.livejournal.com/777309.html) saying: [...] You must join the comm to see signups. [Fandom Discussion] Sex in the Buffyverse [...]

[bm-shipper.livejournal.com]

I've never seen a single episode of Buffy/Angel and therefore can't really speak for that show and it's intentions but I know there is a lot of of "slut shaming" for PLL or rather people saying that the girls are all in unhealthy relationships and that this show is aaaaaaaaaall about unhealthy relationships and that Aria - for example - will never be able to have really "good sex" because of her relationship with Ezra and because it started as a teacher/student relationship. I've seen and heard people talk about "poor Aria" when I never really felt like there is anything wrong with her or her sex-life and it's not like she throws herself at any guy she sees and has sex with them all. In fact, I think Ezra is the only one she ever had sex with, and I also think the only one that had more than 1 sex partner is probably Emily, as yes, they were all making out and kissing several guys, but they only ever had 1 serious boyfriend since the show started who they did "that" with...

I think sex in general is a very touchy subject for some people and not everyone agrees with how it's portrayed...

I'm grateful for shows like "Switched at Birth" where they are trying to show both sides... like Daphne is very open with sex and "sleeps around" (which is okay, I mean, she's 18 and she's single, so she can! Why not?), but at the same time there is Bay who only ever slept with guys she really loves (and there's only 2 of them she slept with), until recently when she got very drunk and woke up naked with a guy that is supposed to be her friend and now it's a question of who's to "blame"... a lot of people do the "slut-shaming" with her saying she shouldn't have gotten so drunk in the first place because of a fight with her boyfriend, but then there are others calling him a predator for taking advantage of an obviously very drunken girl, and yeah...
They do show that sex can be something beautiful but at the same time something pretty terrifying and such...

But to some extent I think people are just "over-analyzing" some stuff...

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I've never seen a single episode of Buffy/Angel

Something that you need to rectify! :P

And yeah, on Buffy there are a variety of sexual relationships too IMO and it's never presented as one way being the right way. There's a character who just has occasional night with his "friend" when she visits him from England, there's characters who only have sex in a committed relationship, there's a young female character that does have a lot of one-night stands with people that she barely knows etc, it's definitely a mixture. There are certainty some plots you can point too that can have bad unintentional messages, but I would never got the message that the show thinks that sex is a bad thing overall? Several of the main characters make positive references to their sex lives for one thing, like how they are breast-girls, or that someone was like a stevedore during sex *g*

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

IMO one has to keep in mind that sex served as a symbol in Buffy’s ~coming of age story. Buffy was always struggling with two parts of her ~self — light vs. dark, normal girl vs. Slayer, maiden vs. whore, etc. Her giving in to her lust for Angel the vampire = succumbing to her dark urges. But at this point she hadn’t accepted all the parts of her identity yet, ergo massive world-ending trauma.

Following said trauma, Buffy tried to ~return to the light = love a normal dude. It’s true Buffy/Riley had a positive sexual relationship — until the end of it, when Riley “cheated” on her because he felt emasculated by his superhuman girlfriend. Taking Riley in that direction shifted the focus of that arc back to sex, only here it wasn’t that Buffy was being punished by the universe for having sex but rather she was being punished, in effect, for not being able to satisfy her boyfriend. By trying to keep the two parts of herself separate she actually wound up alienating the person who was supposed to represent her light side (Riley was so distressed that he couldn’t have ~all of her~ that he looked to vampire hookers to try to understand Buffy’s darkness).

AND THEN SPIKE. Also known as Buffy throwing herself into her dark urges (again) while at the same time trying to keep it secret. At that point she still wasn’t able to reconcile the two parts of her identity, ergo after yet again trying to deny her dark side (= ending the relationship), it then… came back and assaulted her. Trying to silence the symbol of her dark side only led to losing control of it completely.

But here’s where I have a beef with the narrative: After the attempted rape, Buffy didn’t have sex with anyone again on the show. As far as sex as a symbol went, the story was unfinished. What should have happened in S7 was Buffy being allowed to start having positive sexual experiences again, to coincide with her finally being able to reconcile the conflicting parts of her identity. Yet, that didn’t happen, which meant that the attempted rape (Buffy being punished by her ex) seemed to be the last word on the matter. IF WE’RE BEING OPTIMISTIC we can choose to believe she and Spike had sex one last time after the fade-to-black, but… that’s if we’re being optimistic.

TL;DR Buffy's sex life was complicated and the real writer fuck-up was ending the show with her being celibate.

[rahirah]

I suspect that's because the writers never intended Buffy to have reconciled the two parts of her nature. BtVS tends to go with suppressing one's 'dark side' being the good thing to do, rather than integrating it.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Wow really interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing! :)

What should have happened in S7 was Buffy being allowed to start having positive sexual experiences again, to coincide with her finally being able to reconcile the conflicting parts of her identity. Yet, that didn’t happen, which meant that the attempted rape (Buffy being punished by her ex) seemed to be the last word on the matter.

I agree with that, it is unfortunate that Buffy didn't have any positive sexual experiences after SR. They did seem to flirt with the idea of a Buffy/Principal Wood pairing, presumably that would have included a healthy sexlife if they did become an item, but then they were pretty much dropped after First Date in favour of building up the emotional connection between Buffy/Spike instead. And I can understand them feeling that the audience would be more invested in Buffy/Spike than in a recurring character, and that it was more interesting for Buffy's character to interact with Spike after all of their history together, but then unfortunately there was obviously there was more baggage with Buffy/Spike in terms of whether it would be appropriate to show them ever sleeping together again on-screen. I guess it comes down to the attempted rape again and if it was a good idea to include it as part of the story, because if Spike's catalyst for a soul had been more of a metaphor instead (an attempted to turn Buffy perhaps?), then I suspect that they would have eventually had an on screen sex scene in Chosen. With how coy Joss was with the direction of that scene and the fake to black, I get the feeling that's what he would have liked to have shown, but the AR meant that it unfortunately had to be left to our imaginations


Taking Riley in that direction shifted the focus of that arc back to sex, only here it wasn’t that Buffy was being punished by the universe for having sex but rather she was being punished, in effect, for not being able to satisfy her boyfriend.

Hmm I don't really get that vibe from the Buffy/Riley fallout though as Riley was not satisfied by Buffy giving him enough emotionally, rather than physically? I agree that there was a message on the vampire hookers being about trying to understand Buffy's darkness, but it wasn't connected to their sex life IMO, Buffy was the one shown having to go on patrol in season 5 to release more sexual tension after a night of missionary sex with Riley

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

I guess it comes down to the attempted rape again and if it was a good idea to include it as part of the story

This. Considering that it ended up only being a "good" thing for Spike's journey I'd say no. They wrote themselves into a damn corner with that one, smh.

I agree that there was a message on the vampire hookers being about trying to understand Buffy's darkness, but it wasn't connected to their sex life IMO

Again, the sex was just a metaphor. Of course Riley was emotionally dissatisfied by their relationship, leading to his physical infidelity (and causing Buffy to feel like she was emotionally impotent). The point is that the sexual stuff was used to represent the emotional.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Oh I totally agree with the attempted rape being a mistake and failing to tell Buffy's story, but I just can't see how Riley cheating fits with a message of Buffy always facing consequences after she has sex? Sorry if I'm being really obtuse! The vampire brothel wasn't even really much of a metaphor IMO, Riley was presented as having physically cheated in Buffy's eyes, and the focus is all on how Riley cheated because he felt so dissatisfied at not being a bigger part of her life. Yes Buffy felt emotionally impotent after that, but I just can't understand how viewers are going to make any unfortunate connections with Buffy's sexuality being the problem?

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

No no, I'm not arguing that Buffy was being shamed by the universe for having sex with her college boyfriend -- just that sex/sexuality was always one way or another a Thing. As one would expect from a show about vampires (which in itself was a giant metaphor).

[chelseagirl.livejournal.com]

I addressed this in an article that was published in one of the first academic essay collections on Buffy, some years ago. My point was that Buffy wasn't being punished when Angel went evil after sleeping with her -- it was an examination of her fears -- what's the worst possible thing that could happen -- as the Gothic so often is.

And even then, I was responding to the claim that Buffy wasn't feminist because she was punished for sex. *sigh*

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Oh that's very cool! And yeah I agree, I appreciate that it can be seen as unfortunate that something terrible happened the first time that Buffy had sex, but if the show doesn't use that as a message with characters lecturing Buffy on what were you thinking having sex at your age, then I just don't see it as a "punishment". IMO any blame afterwards was always more from Xander and Giles in particular seeing it as a dereliction of duty that Buffy didn't take care of the problem sooner, Buffy wasn't called out on the act of sex itself (Okay the talk with Giles is possibly ambiguous, but what you take from it IMO is that Giles respects Buffy and doesn't hold her at fault)

[torrilin.livejournal.com]

Eh, I do think it's a fair criticism. The creative team made some pretty dubious choices. We're told the monsters represent the horrors of high school. Unfortunately, the monsters are very frequently cast as male, particularly the chorus or spear carrier roles. And the victims of a male monster are almost always female. The horrors aren't generic then. They're specifically about a woman being hurt by guys, whether murder or rape.

I'm fairly sure that wasn't what the creative team meant to do. But it's what they showed the audience, for something like 2/3s of the episodes. Seriously, go and count up female villains sometime, episode by episode. The individual count is tiny.

Some episodes get a lot more explicit about the evil raping men, like Reptile Boy and Lie to Me. And where the show makes that rape metaphor more explicit, they're usually taking a very victim blaming line.

The other side of the coin matters a lot too. Where we do get presented with a woman doing villainous acts, she's presented as incompetent, a whore, or crazy. Often all three at once. And she's rarely given a serious redemption arc, or even a joking one. Faith's arc might count as a redemption arc, but the show doesn't give it the same weight as the ones given to male characters. Definitely nowhere near the episode count even of Xander's arc. The writing just doesn't take female villains seriously. They don't need to have motives, or a plan. (and I find it quite interesting that being a whore is a reason for villainy in a woman, but not in a man...)

There's an awful lot of sex shaming in the narrative as a result of these two elements. And I'm not surprised it affects the tone of the show and makes even a "harmless" sex act feel doom laden for many viewers.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, the monsters are very frequently cast as male, particularly the chorus or spear carrier roles. And the victims of a male monster are almost always female.

I do agree that the male villains far outnumbered the female villains and that the show liked their 'all men are beasts metaphors', and certainly the show wasn't perfect and episodes like Reptile Boy did sometimes step over the line with their messages, but I have just never felt like there was was such a pattern of female characters getting slut-shamed by male villains that it completely overwhelmed the sex-positive narrative

[stolenglimpse.livejournal.com]

I agree with everything.

Never saw it as Buffy's being punished for having sex. Not at all.

With Angel, they've actually waited a long while and it took a near death experience basically and Buffy being scared to lose Angel for them to actually do the deed. And, yeah, Angel turned bad after that but it's no punishment for Buffy. If Angel hadn't turned bad, they would have done it again and again and again. As all healthy relationships do. I took that mostly as a be careful who you decide to sleep with. You never know if their intentions were good or not. Like Angel turning bad and wanting nothing to do with Buffy (aside from torturing her that is) was basically almost like "the guy flirts, claims to love you, gives you sweet words and everything just to get you into bed". Basically linked with Parker but different at the same time. Because Parker's a player. Angel became evil... Parker was a bad decision but anybody could have fallen for Parker's ways. Willow, clever Willow, seeing through his facade and sweet words haha!!

As for Riley, that was the healthier relationship considering everything. Human/human, to start and it was good. But something was missing and it got boring. The relationship was boring. And then they got possessed/cursed and couldn't do anything other than having sex and blah... And then season 5 was still boring in terms of the relationship and the whole dealing with Joyce's case but still having to show Riley she cares and one side of that is sleeping with him. And then he turned around and let vampires suck his blood because he was obsessed with needing to feel what Buffy felt with Angel and Dracula. But she saved Angel's life by letting him drink from her and Dracula enthraced her. Not the same. Riley leaving was his ego mostly. People see that as punishment for Buffy but it's really not. She tried to keep her relationship. She didn't even think there was a problem with it.

IWRY happened but that was with Angel. Human Angel which basically equals soul!Angel like in Innocence. Had nothing bad happened, Angel wouldn't have decided to go back to being a vampire. They would have restarted the relationship and would have had sweet sweet sex again and again. No punishment for Buffy there.

As for Spike... bad decision but Buffy was in a bad place and Spike seemed to be the only one to understand her. To get her. Yeah, they were fitting the first time and brought a building down basically but Buffy was lost. And the many times after that they had sex, she was still lost. He took advantage but he loves her so hey, she comes to him and wants to... he won't deny it. She was in a deep depression and when she got better, she told him and Spike was the one not understanding after. And then the almost rape. I guess people blame Buffy for that. Spike didn't understand the whole situation. Why does she suddenly no longer want to and all. I'm not excusing him either but definitely not a punishment for Buffy.


WOW!! That was long, sorry.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Heh, you don't have to apologise to me of all people for being wordy! :P

And yes I agree, I think that it could have been more troubling if B/A were presented as only being a good relationship when they kept things chaste, but that's not a state of affairs that's seen as healthy or normal, they are both pretty miserable with fighting against their urges in season 3 of Bts, and then in IWRY Angel gets Buffy up on the table as soon as he finds out that the curse has been lifted and he's allowed happiness. Buffy/Angel being unable to have sex was a curse, and one that left both of them frustrated, at least before Angel leaves town so that Buffy can have the completely fulfilling adult relationship that she deserves (not that Angel's decision to leave Buffy was all about the curse of their not being able to have sex lol, but that was definitely presented as being a part of what he wanted for Buffy)

And, like I said above, obviously other issues came into it after the near rape scene from the previous season, but you do get the feeling that Joss would equally have liked to have ended Spuffy on a note of maybe they did have their first romantic sex on their final night together in Chosen, just as Buffy/Angel get the happy day with sex and the morning-after in IWRY that they were robbed off in Innocence. In filming terms the scene was not at all subtle with the way that it ends on Buffy and Spike staring at one another from across the room before a fade to black (although I do concede that, regardless of Joss's intentions and his reasons for not giving them a sex scene, it did still send the wrong message for Buffy to never again have any sex onscreen after the attempted rape)

[stolenglimpse.livejournal.com]

Even if they didn't end up having sex in that scene, you can definitely feel the strong connection and understanding between them. And I love that when she tells him she loves him he tells her she doesn't. She does feel for him, he's in her heart, there's something there for sure. Actual love, maybe, maybe not. And Spike recognizes that and he's grown so much since the almost rape. Okay, soul aside of course. But Spike was changing before that. She changed him. The almost rape pretty much opened his eyes, I think.

As for B/A, yeah, IWRY is basically what Innocence should have been. They actually made love in Innocence where IWRY was sex but still. It's what they should have had from the start. Nothing to stop them and being completely sweet to each other because they love each other. In a way, even if you move on, you can never truly completely forget your first love. For Buffy, it was a very strong first love, too.

[snogged.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed reading your thoughts on this topic.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Thank you :)

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

I agree with you 100% on these points. I really think the Angel thing was, as you said, making sure you know it's a good idea and so forth.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I really think it's unfair that there's this widespread belief that Buffy the series isn't sex positive at all, just because Joss went for a thematically powerful choice with Buffy and Angel, a story arc that most viewers point to as being a high point of the series for them