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I think for me it would depend a lot on why the author took it offline. If it was for a really serious reason, like Australia's crackdown on any underage fic, or because someone was facing RL consequences for writing fanfic, I would be completely respectful of the author's wishes. If it was someone who had just flounced her way out of fandom and removed all her stories in a fit of pique, I would have no qualms whatsoever about emailing her stories to people who asked (assuming I had them--I actually don't save a lot of things to my hard drive, even though I know I should).

Cases in between those two extremes, I think it would depend a lot on my relationship with the author and my understanding of why she took the stories down in the first place. I personally tend to think of this as something like sharing copies of an out of print book--I basically think once something has been posted online, at least if it's posted unflocked, then it has been published and I really don't like the idea of authors being able to "unpublish" things, unless it's for serious RL reasons. On the other hand, if I respected the author a lot and she asked people not to, I'd at least take that seriously.

As for what the fandom standard is--my impression is that it's pretty common for people to continue privately sharing things authors have taken offline, as long as they're not publicizing that they're doing it.

I think for me it would depend a lot on why the author took it offline.

Whenever the issue seems to come up in SV fandom, the authors don't seem to have given a reason, but just be very firm on no emailing the story to anyone

And your reasoning make sense *nods*

You're ever so slightly more diplomatic than me, Nora. ♥

Hee! I do get pretty annoyed when people take their fic offline (except for the whole Australia thing, because the idea of being classified a pedophile just because you wrote underage fic is SKEERY), but then I think "hmm, is that just my sense of fannish entitlement?" and so I get more wishy washy.

Yes, I am sympathetic to the "serious reasons" thing, but otherwise not so much. If a friend of mine decided to do it I think I would mock them relentlessly until they cried with shame.

Personally, I think authors who do that are giant wankers. Once the story has been published publicly, the author no longer has control over who gets to read it. Oh, they can ASK the world not to read it again. And some people might respect their wishes if they're fucking *lucky*. But it's basically public property.

IOW, share away! (You may have to face the wrath of the author if they find out, but just flip them the bird and tell them to STFU.)

Any chance you'll tell me who you're talking about?

Personally, I think authors who do that are giant wankers.

I agree! :D

(You may have to face the wrath of the author if they find out, but just flip them the bird and tell them to STFU.)

I will think about that *giggles* And it's not really anything exciting, I just noticed that on comms like

sv_inquiry, it always seems to be taken as given, that we don't email the fics out if the author decides she wants it all off-line.

But of course now I'm wondering if there are secret emails going on after all, and people are just being very proper about it on the comm itself, in case the original author or her friends wade in on the discussion...

I should bloody well hope so. I mean, it's not like you're breaking the law by sharing stories that Princess Fic-Writer no longer feels are up to scratch. The only thing you have to worry about is making them mad. And why would they be mad? Because their ego is large and they're under the mistaken impression that the world gives a shit about their embarrassment. Which of course, the world doesn't.

This has less to do with courtesy and way more to do with certain writers desperately needing to get over themselves.

There are secret emails. I personally never save fiction (mostly because I don't know how). But I have been able to get most lost fic that I search and ask for.

I had an author once ask to have her fics removed from a site I ran and I had no problem doing so. I didn't really care why they wanted it. I figure it's their fics and if they don't want them in publication anymore, that's their business. I probably wouldn't email them to anyone either out of respect for the author.

I do have a story I send out occasionally written by a former friend as a sequel to one of my stories because she doesn't have it online anymore as far as I know, and people sometimes ask about it. She never said not to, and it was written with my permission.

As an author I don't think I'd ever ask for my stories to be removed unless there was some kind of legal issue about them. I left an email list with a huge amount of animosity once and just requested they stop putting my new fics on their site but never thought to ask them to remove the ones I'd already given permission for.

But, then, everyone has a different take on these things and some people are very proprietory of their stories or have major ego problems (either way) that leak into their desire to share their fics.

Oh yeah, I think it's fair enough to remove the fics from sites. It just always struck me as strange that an author even forbids the emailing of a story privately through friends. It's not like anyone can just stumble across the story in that case

If I have a good relationship with the author and want to keep it that way, I wouldn't e-mail it out.

Oh, what am I talking about. I'd probably not mail it out in any case.

Point the person who wants it to an appropriate link in google.com's cache, or at the Wayback Machine, otoh . . . . ;-)

I love google.com's cache! *g*

If I have it downloaded on my computer (and it was fic that was openly posted on-line), I will e-mail it to anyone who wants it, regardless.

That's kind of where I was coming from too, but a lot of people do seem to respect the wishes of the author in not even emailing the fic out, and it never really comes up for discussion much in the comms. It's just accepted as the decent fandom thing to do, which confuses me a bit. Because once you've published the fic, how can you really expect that people can't even emial it privately to a friend. Fair enough if they don't want it on-line, but emails don't seem like something they should expect control over. I suspect that some authors would request the removal of the fics from peoples hard drives if they could as well :P

Yup, I agree. An author has every right to request it not be archived or put on line, and those wishes really need to be respected. But trying to forbid e-mailing? Pfft. That's just wanky.

There are some people in HP fandom that are that way with art. I have a bunch of stuff from the 'old days' that was taken down, but I still e-mail it to friends who want it.

It depends of how the author asked and the context of the situation. If it is one of those authors that are involved in some kind of tantrum and demand to have their fics down and not talk about them anymore I certainly would talk about them if the occasion arises and would send them privately to anyone who asks if the fanfic is good.

If it is a legal thing going on I definitely would respect the author's wishes or if the fic is crappy I would just comment that to the person who is asking for it.

Personally I think that is a little bit ridiculous to ask to not read one thing that has been published. If it is archived you can ask the maintainer to take them down but is a little bit anti-internet to ask people to forget them. Maybe they don't mean anything special to you anymore but those who saved them in their hard disk did it because they loved them and by forbidding the distribution you're hurting others feelings because how many people you know that saves fic for the pleasure of saving a file?

ITA! And it seems to come up the most in SV fandom, and it's always the case of no one really knows why exactly they don't want the fic being shared, just that the author has requested that. So it's kind of hard to know how to take that. Even if it was legal issues, so long as it's just private emails between friends, and keeping them off the internet, it wouldn't seem that it would affect the author all that much

I agree with several people above.It seems to me that once you publish on the internet, it's public domain. Shareable, but not changeable. So, yes, I would still send it through private email if a close friend asked me to. Hell, even if a not so close friend asked me to. :D

*grins*

And don't forget the Wayback Machine at archive.org

hell, you can dig up the most interesting stuff there :D

I feel every writer has the right to say how their work is distributed. I see someone taking down their fics and requesting they no longer be distributed even by e-mail to be in their right. Every fic is part of the person who wrote it.

Would you be offended by someone who refused to have their fic hosted on any site except their own? I mean if you go on the "once it's published" than should anyone be allowed to share it?

And have you considered that the author has a valid reason for taking their work out of public eye. I know authors who have removed fics in order to rework them into an original story in a hopes to get them published. And having the fic floating out there could be a big problem.

And saying you are sharing it like an old novel. Well if you had "paid" for that novel you would have something you had a right to give or sell to another. But with fanfic that is not the case. You have no investment in the product and therefor no rights to distribute it without permission.

Well that is my two cents.

Every fic is part of the person who wrote it.

But isn't that the case for any writing, whether it's a published novel, or a fan fic. Once you've released that work to the public, how much control over it can you realistically expect to have?

Would you be offended by someone who refused to have their fic hosted on any site except their own? I mean if you go on the "once it's published" than should anyone be allowed to share it?

I understand if people don't want their fic on-line any more for whatever reason, and of course it's up to them where they want to see it hosted It's refusing to allow people to even email a story they enjoy to a friend, that puzzles me. I see that as a bit like a published author not wanting copies of their novel to be shared among people as a library book, and arguing that she won't profit from it anyway, so why shouldn't they be able to put a stop to it. Well because they've already released the work now, and it's too late to close the barn door at that stage

An AU Buffy fic was removed from the internet a while ago, because the author was planning to rework it into a novel, so I just had someone email me the fic quietly. And I enjoyed it so much that I'm planning to buy the novel when it comes out. But I'm guessing the author wouldn't be thrilled if she knew that her fic was still being emailed. Swapping a story privately among friends is something that's always gone on though, whether with published novels that may be out of print for whatever reason, or emailing fan fic that's no longer on-line

I see that as a bit like a published author not wanting copies of their novel to be shared among people as a library book, and arguing that she won't profit from it anyway, so why shouldn't they be able to put a stop to it. Well because they've already released the work now, and it's too late to close the barn door at that stage

You are forgetting the fact that with a novel that it was PURCHASED. When you purchase a copy you have the right to do with the book as you please. EXCEPT make copies and distribute them. With fanfic you have not purchased any rights. You have been allowed to read somehting free of charge. You do not have the right to give, sell or lend the "story" cause you do not own a copy.

It is not the same as sharing a book out of publish. Cause you are not sharing an item you OWN. All rights to the distribution belong to the author and only the author. Now if he/she sold you a copy, you would have a right to give, sell, or lend it to anyone you please. But until you own the story, you should not distribute without permission.

It all comes down to respect. And anyone who takes the time and energy to write fanfic, deserves to have our respect.

Swapping a story privately among friends is something that's always gone on

And that make it ethical??

You have been allowed to read somehting free of charge. You do not have the right to give, sell or lend the "story" cause you do not own a copy.

I believe you're well-intentioned but wrong. Even free leaflets are protected under copyright laws, so purchase is not a factor.

Once something is posted online, it is public domain. Any restraint in passing stories along generates from a respect for the author's wishes.

As an author, I began ending my fics with "copyright, story not characters," with my sn and the date, which creates a virtual copyright, even with my nom-de-plume being the only identifier (per my Intellectual Property Attorney son). That is to protect its content from being stolen and paraded as someone else's [Frell, you'd unleash hordes of rabid monkeys on such a poopy-butt, to protect my honor, wouldn't you??? Pretty-pweeaze?] But copyright won't allow you to tell a person who possesses the story, not to share it.

I agree with the others, that if a RL thing is the deal, no prob. but if it's flounce and ego, I certainly would not post it or a link to it, out of respect for whatever had gotten up their butt, but I would share privately.

Well, considering how much Karen McFaddyon's fic gets passed around (and the fact that I have them), I'd have to say that SGA fandom has no qualms about sharing. I guess it would depend on a lot of circumstances. If I had it, I MIGHT share it, but I'd probably only share it within a very limited circle. I mean, it's not like Yoiko or Kat or whizzy couldn't come to the house and read it or burn it to disc or slip it on a flash drive. *shrugs* So... I think that's a really tough question #^_^# I mean, there are some things I HATE and don't want anyone ever reading. I've tried removing them from the web, and there's one bitch who *just won't take it down*. She drives me crazy because it's not like I gave a blanket permission for her to keep my fics. I wouldn't mind if people emailed them or something but God, I hate them being on the web. *gripes* #^_^#

Yeah, I hate the videos I made back in 2004/2005 time, so I've taken them off-line. But I don't really care if people want to email them. Not that they're worth emailing, but y'know lol

Well, yeah =D Exactly. My issue with the place archiving the fics that make me pissy is that I gave permission for them to host a handful of other stuff I had written with Yoiko, and they took that for blanket permission to host stuff I had written with someone else, stuff I didn't want hosted anywhere. Ever. It was shit. It was tacky overwrought shit even, and I was surprised that anyone wanted it ever. I don't care if people email it, I just don't want it hosted online, especially not in the place it is. To be honest, I probably wouldn't be pissy if I found it on some little backwater archive. I am pissy that it's on this particular archive, because I don't want it there and they won't be reasonable and take it down. >.o; Which, yes, is contradictory and silly, but that's my prerogative. =D

I have mixed feelings about it. I think that authors have a right to take their fic down if they want, however silly I think their reasons are. And in some cases (like taking a fic down to rework it into something original) I think it's perfectly reasonable. I think it would be wrong for an archive to refuse to remove a fic on request, or for someone else to re-post a fic that had been removed.

But sharing such fics privately by email doesn't seem to me that it harms anyone. And I hate the idea that fics can just drop out of fannish history.

And I can't see ever taking down my own fic short of legal challenges or a real-life publishing deal that demanded it. I hope I've improved over the years, but I don't mind if people read my earlier stuff. It was the best I could do at the time, and I'm not ashamed of any of it.

I think it would be wrong for an archive to refuse to remove a fic on request, or for someone else to re-post a fic that had been removed.

But sharing such fics privately by email doesn't seem to me that it harms anyone.

I agree :)

Yeah, I pretty much have zero qualms about e-mailing fic to people. If it's something that you published in a way that I can save, then it's something I can share. I mean, I wouldn't put someone's stuff up on a website or anything, but e-mailing? I have no issues.

:D

second everything that anyone else above said.
of course, i respect any and all wishes of any authors, friends or not.
but so far , in my entire fannish life, there has only been one fic, where the author expressively even told me in no unclear words, no to private emails.

errm, ok. i always add that particular part, when i rec that fic.
I will never repost any fics, or even host an archive (unless you count me being moderator of the clarklexfic yahoo group as an archivist)

but you know, it never has stopped any bold fan to look up my email, and ask me anyway. i mean, what could be the worst thing that happened?!?!
me either doing nothing, or scolding them for *daring* to ask?!?!
so far, yeah, private emails, i do.

i am not offering it, like publicitly ever. self-preservation comes first, and who knows, you can never predict, if there are going to be any lovely fellow members, who would love to wank with you over it, if you dare to overstep your boundaries.

but you know, 6000 clex fics here on harddrive, hundreds of authors, and so far, 2 authors with a NO to anything.

and back to your question: yes, i have requested, and get requests.

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