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Regarding the accusations of racism in Doctor Who

It's not DW's fault that Martha had to disguise herself as a maid in HN/FOB. DW's a show about time travel, of course the racism in history will come up occasionally, when a black actor or actress is cast as companion! It was a two-parter set in 1913 England, why blame DW for accurately portraying history? The episodes even showed John Smith and Joan being the ones to look like fools for underestimating Martha (who resolved the cliffhanger of HN, and had the knowledge of the bones in the hand moment).

And Rose was complaining in series two about the Doctor always sticking her in the serving position. Rose was dinner lady in SR, she was the waitress in the Cyberman episode. Martha's experiences in HN/FOB were not out of the norm for a companion, and I'm sure that Rose would have been the maid as well, if she was around for that episode. And Martha having to work in a shop in Blink to support the Doctor, only reflected badly on him! She was hardly the happy and "faithful servant" seeing as she suddenly burst out with how she has to support him now, and seemed pretty pissed off at his uselessness

And it's seen as humiliating for Martha to be loyal to the Doctor, but Rose was just as clingy in her time. The companions are supposed to be swept away by the Doctor. I mean what about Jack throwing dignity to the wind, and quite literally throwing himself on top of the Tardis? Freaking out over losing the Doctor's hand in the jar. Not to mention Jack emphasizing with Martha over being overlooked romantically by the Doctor in favour of Rose. Even Rose had to watch him flirting with the upper-class Madame De Pompadour in GITF. Martha wasn't supposed to come across as a loyal servant at all. What about her ordering the Doctor to tell her about Gallifrey in Gridlock. Saying "I'll do what I like" in TSOD. Slapping him in HN.

And there's upset over the Doctor not loving Martha romantically. But then wouldn't it have made the Doctor look incredibly shallow to love the next companion that crosses his path in the exact same way that he had loved Rose? So it seems the solution is either to have cast a white female for the role of next companion, or to have just completely messed up the Doctor's emotional arc. Plenty of people did fall for Martha. Martha got a snog in 42. Tom got killed by the Master in trying to protect Martha. Shakespeare flirted with Martha. The Doctor overlooked Martha because of his own issues, because of still being hung up on Rose. Are the casual audience really going to be sat at home thinking that the difference is that Rose was white, and Martha black? The Doctor would have been the same with any companion that wasn't Rose, which is backed up by the emphasis the word Rose is given throughout the season.

Yes the Master did make Martha's family his servants in TLOTT. And I was uncomfortable with that. We were supposed to be! There's also Jack in chains. There's the Doctor with a dog bowl, and being trained to respond to a bell. There's the massaging women (what would they be called?), Lucy rushing to get the Master's coat. Martha was actually the one character who escaped being humiliated by the Master, and returns to laugh in his face. I believe her brother would also have been involved in that, except the actor got double-booked by mistake?

And the Doctor did say that he would never ask Martha not to carry a gun. (He definitely said "ask" not "tell"). And again that's Martha being treated like everyone else. In Bad Wolf, the Doctor throws the gun aside, "like I was ever gonna use it". Last season he makes the comment that Torchwood can shoot him, but the moral high ground is his. And, in Utopia, the Doctor tells Jack "don't you dare" when Jack had a gun. It so wasn't a comment on "I can't believe you ever thought that Martha would do something I hadn't ordered her to do", it was a comment along the lines of, "as if I would promote the use of guns and killing".

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IMO if they hadn't have brought up the race issue in HN/FoB it would've seemed odd. I know racism is something people don't like to think existed but it sure as hell would've done at the time of that episode and I think it's brave of them to show it on a "kids" show. Just showing the way something would have actually been and making it realistic does not mean the show is endorsing anything.

Eh, there is too much fanwank in this fandom right now. I miss the days of Nine when everything seemed so much simpler.

IMO if they hadn't have brought up the race issue in HN/FoB it would've seemed odd.

Exactly. Apparently in America it used to be a thing where the black woman was always the maid, so people were uncomfortable with Martha ending up dressed as the maid in HN/FOB. But I thought that episode was very good at condemning the racism, and making Joan and John Smith look a bit foolish for underestimating Martha. When John Smith started saying about it's a story, and Martha slaps him, who didn't cheer! *g* And telling the FOB guy to shut up when she gets the gun on him. Letting Joan know she has medical knowledge of bones in the hand.

So very true! If anything it just made racism look even more stupid than we all know it is.

I can sort of see why the Americans feel weird about seeing someone who is black being a maid but then again, if that would've been the case at the time, why not show that? And as we've said, Martha just blows it all out of the water when she shows how much she knows and how clever she is.

Yes the Master did make Martha's family his servants in TLOTT. And I was uncomfortable with that. We were supposed to be!

And just to add in relation to that; Martha's family would've been treated like that had they been black, white, or any other colour. I think maybe because we all feel so uncomfortable with racism we almost look out for it where it isn't even intended, if you know what I mean.

Yes, I think Jackie would have had to serve tea to the Master just the same, if Rose was still there instead *shrugs*

I mean I can sort of understand people saying that it just upset them to see the Master humiliating Martha's family by making them servants, and it should have been written another way perhaps. But I don't understand people saying they will no longer watch/rec DW because of it. The Master did treat all of the characters around him just as awfully, so it's not like anyone was being singled out

Well people did complainn that the American two-parter was doing a disservice to history by ignoring the racism at the time of the depression, and having a black man in charge of the crew. (I'd actually agree with that, but that two-parter was crappy anyway, which is why I was so impressed at how HN/FOB handled it). But then HN/FOB is disliked as well for the handling of the racism in history, so it seems that either way it's going to upset people

RTD is making the effort to be inclusive at least, and then he gets slammed for Jack being an insulting sterotype of bisexuals, and people saying they will no longer watch DW because of the Doctor not loving Martha as he loved Rose. What about giving RTD some credit for casting a black female as lead, for having a bisexual male as lead of TW.

Last paragraph so true. When I first watched DW I was kind of surprised that Mickey was her boyfriend, mainly because you don't see that on tv and when you do American tv makes a big deal out of it. With DW it was just normal, nothing was made of it and I was all YAY.

Which is why my mind boggles at all the accusations of racism.

Oh and regarding Martha being a sterotype of a loyal servant, I think she bitched and shouted at him way more than Jack did. I mean he was abandoned by the Doctor, and it still came off like it was the Doctor that had the right to be pissy with him! (even though it was hardly Jack's fault that he had been brought back to life!)

Letting Joan know she has medical knowledge of bones in the hand.

I especially agree about Martha making John and Joan look stupid for underestimating her. What was best about that was how Martha's frustration with the both of them illustrated just how incredibly idiotic they were being to really believe that the color of a persons skin actually made them inferior, especially mentally.

To be honest, I was pretty frustrated when I wrote this entry and comments *g* At the time it felt to me like all of the arguments on RTD being racist and sexist, were devaluating Martha the most! Just in order to make their point about the show devaluating Martha. The arguments on how Martha really didn't do anything that impressive in the finale, certaintly it wasn't anything clever or worthwhile that she thought up off her own bat, and the suggestion that the Doctor was constantly looking at Martha and comparing her to Rose. I find it an unnecessary focus on victim Martha, and not even that accurate as to what the show was portraying. Especially when some scenes were blatantly being taken out of context in order to stregnthen an argument

I honestly do think that a lot of it was frustration because, when the first promo pics came out, people were perhaps expecting Martha to be set up as a direct replacement to Rose, and have that exact same type of relationship with the Doctor. And people who had disliked Rose, were particularly excited about that and the "Martha FTW" comments were all too frequent before the character had even made an appearance on the show :P And then when it didn't turn out as they had hoped, there was so much lashing out after LotTl, and I think some people lost perspective is my honest opinion, and failed to appreciate what a fabulous character the writing team gave us with Martha. Or even Tish, who I really adored as well, and hope we will get to see more of soon.

I mean some of Freema's comments make me sad when I think of how some of her "fans" seem determined to distort Martha's contribution, and talk of how Martha was never allowed to be as great as Rose, because Freeme is rightfully proud of Martha's character and development

"I was told about character development towards the end, when Russell did say to me, 'Look, are you prepared - Martha saves the world!' I felt so honoured and so flattered that he'd entrusted me with that"

"She outgrew The Doctor, in a sense, and so the next time they meet it will be in a more professional capacity. I'm so proud of her journey and who she has become."

Yet there were so many comments on how it was all the Doctor that saved the world, Martha wasn't allowed to do anything particularly special, and what an insulting exit she had. I think pepple got carried away and ended up ultimately putting down the character of Martha in their rants on the writing team

Yes, to everything. I think people are just pissed off that The Doctor didn't fall in love with Martha. But I think that maybe her crush was set up so later when she comes back and The Doctor is not over but has accepted Rose being gone. Then he regenerates and Martha/Doctor ship. Or at least that's how I would do it since people are already invested in Martha.

But I would have liked Martha not being in love with The Doctor. It would have been an interesting dynamic, that they are probably going to play with Donna. Although I think I'm the only one that saw ust between them. lol.

I think, if people are being honest with themselves, that's a part of the disappointment for some, that they were expecting similar dynamics with Ten/Martha to Ten/Rose. Instead RTD decides to do something different, and so it's seen as insulting and racist for Martha to not be as loved as Rose (even though she was loved, just not by the Doctor). People didn't get as angry over the treatment of Mickey (which was more insulting IMO), but Martha was set up as the new female companion, and people had a lot of shippy expectations before she even made her first appearance. And now they're feeling let down I gues

But I would have liked Martha not being in love with The Doctor.

I found her crush unnecessary too. She was set up to be much cooler in S&J when she comments about not gong for aliens. Some of the mopey comments became a bit much, but then I really liked how she played off Jack when he returned, and they're both kind of snarking at the Doctor and his thing for blondes. It's funnier when it's light quips, instead of Martha coming across as all emo.

Although I think I'm the only one that saw ust between them. lol.

Hee, not the only one.

marriedonmars has some Ten/Donna shippers :)

so it's seen as insulting and racist for Martha to not be as loved as Rose (even though she was loved, just not by the Doctor).

I have to disagree with you here, if you don't mind. I think that she was as loved, just in a different way. The Doctor is the kind of being who loves someone he knows is a friend and a Companion with both his hearts. With Rose it became romantic, with Martha it was platonic. I think the reason a lot of people who ship Doctor/Martha were so disappointed was because it was fairly obvious that the Doctor (9) fell for Rose early on. He seemed to have a thing for her right off the bat. That didn't happen with Martha, so some people may have jumped to the conclusion it has something to with racism.

I think its absurd to ever accuse the Doctor of racism. It was in TSC when Martha voiced concerns about being carted away as a slave, and the Doctor said she looked "human" to him. That's how the Doctor views people--as people. I believe the Doctor really has no concept of discriminating against anyone for genetics (except perhaps the Daleks, but that's totally understandable, wouldn't you agree?). To him, discrimination because of one's skin color would make about as much sense as discriminating against someone because of the color of their eyes, or their hair, or something else that doesn't mean a damned thing.

So, to get back to my point-the Doctor loves Martha. He really, really does. He just wasn't in love with her, and there's a difference. It was obvious, though, that he took her for granted a few times during the course of series three, and sometimes he was harsh with her when he shouldn't have been, but that doesn't mean he didn't love her.

I'm hoping that in the beginning of series four, the Doctor will appreciate what he had with Martha when she's not there. Absence, they say, makes the heart grow fonder. It would be good for him to miss her, and realize that Rose is really gone from him, and he can move on, that's it's okay to move on. Then, when Martha came back, having a complete reversal where he's getting feelings for her, and she's acting aloof, like she doesn't care for him anymore. I wouldn't mind that at all. It's a kids show, so of course they couldn't go too far and make it soap opera-ish, and I wouldn't want them to drag it out, but I would like to see some mutual romantic feeling happen before Martha and the Doctor's tenure is over.

I put it badly there, I meant in terms of Martha not having the Doctor's romantic love, because that's what fandom seem obsessed with with now *rollseyes* So it sometimes feels like people are taking the attitude that it doesn't matter whether or not Martha left the series kicking ass, all that really matters is that the Doctor didn't fall in love with her, and that therefore proves that she was never allowed to measure up to Rose. The arguments on casual viewers watching through the Doctor's eyes, and so if he saw Martha as less than Rose, we would be encouraged to do the same, and it was only through the Doctor falling in love that would validate Martha as a companion *blinks*

And totally on how Martha should return. I could see the Doctor being flustered if she waltzes in to the Tardis being really self-possessed, having become a Doctor, and being a couple with Tom or something. Hee

I don't watch Who, but it seems to me like the same mindset that wants to ban Tom Sawyer or Gone With the Wind because they're racist.

Duh. 19th Century America WAS racist. Burying the ugly parts of our history only doom us to repeat them, it doesn't make them disappear.

Your argument is excellent, btw.

Oh you should watch DW, it's awesome! That is if you can stand all the moaning and bitching that goes on in the fandom. If I was RTD I would be wondering why I bothered working so hard on DW, when a lot of fans fans seem to consider it their lifes work to make nasty comments about him,

It was something like ten minutes after the replacement companion for season 4 was announced, that a petition was set up insulting the actress herself, and will apparently be mailed to the BBC *head meet desk*

Heh. I now have a standing policy of avoiding fandoms like the plague. As much as I adore all of my Buffy fandom friends, listening to the noise involved really ruins the viewing experience on a lot of levels. So although I watch from a distance and occasionally comment, I'm not going anywhere NEAR joining another fandom. Us fan types are crazy people. ;)

I did watch the first season of Who on DVD. Christopher Eccleston is one of my TV boyfriends. I've seen up to when Nine turned into Ten in the Christmas special. I don't have cable anymore. :(

Part of the fun of watching a tv show for me, is getting involved with fandom discussions on a show that I love. But then it's all "Rusty must burn in hell", and every entry in three being about woe over the new companion, and it's not so fun any more :/

And season 3 was amazing (sooooo slashy with the Doctor and the Master), that you should totally get to watch it if you have the chance!

I know they screen it on CBC -- I live near the border, so we get the major Montreal stations -- I think they're at least a season behind, so I'll have to see if/when I can catch it.

Jumping in here (sorry!) to say that CBC is actually catching up well, and we're two episodes into season three already! It's showing on Monday evenings at 8, if I remember correctly. :D

Yay! Thank you! I'll check it out! :)

I sympathize I avoid Buffy internet fandom due to all the shipper wars and while I enjoy the ocassional fic if I see bashing I'm out of there in a flash.

f I was RTD I would be wondering why I bothered working so hard on DW, when a lot of fans fans seem to consider it their lifes work to make nasty comments about him,

Russell knows that there are idiots no matter what you do. Why let a few dumb asses stop him from making great television when there are literally millions who will appreciate his genius? :D

The thing that gets me thinking about all this? From what I've heard round the f-list, the Master arc was originally planned for Rose. So everything Martha was doing in the Last of the Timelords? Was supposed to be Rose.

Oh I didn't know that! The Face of Boe was originally supposed to be giving the Doctor the message in New Earth, and then it was delayed, so that certainly makes sense.

Series 2 would have been much improved if it had ended with the Master, instead of Daleks again. Although, if Rose's name became a legend around the world, and gorgeous Tom sacrificed himself for her, I can already hear the cries of why was the Doctor removed from the main action, we're watching the Rose Tyler show now are we, and Rose is RTD's Mary Sue :P

Rose can't win. Like ever.

Seriously! Rose or her fans...I'm not the biggest fan of Rose/Ten at all, but people are entitled to still ship them and fic them if they like. It's pretty depressing to see people on my flist getting attacked and generalised, just because OMG they might not actually want to start shipping the Doctor with the next companion that comes along.

DW is a strange fandom really isn't it *g*

I don't get what Rose to elicit so much hate. While yes she was annoying at times, she was still awesome to me.

I've been accused of alot in DW fandom, mostly because I'm a batshit Rose!fen as some people like to call Rose fans. Really whatever I don't mind, but I find it quite funny when they start omg!why did Martha leave, please come back. But you know some of this people were telling us to get over. Umm, okay.

I think I might be able to ship The Doctor again but not right after Rose. Maybe two more companions. So Martha, Donna, and whoever is next. It might be Martha again.

I've been accused of alot in DW fandom, mostly because I'm a batshit Rose!fen as some people like to call Rose fans

Don't forget that Rose fans can relate to Rose because they are white and lower-class, and Martha is a struggle for them to relate too because she is an intelligent medical student, and less chav-like :P

And yes, I don't know why people were expecting Rose/Doctor fans to immediately switch to shipping Doctor/Martha, and writing Doctor/Martha fics instead. Like hmm kind of missing the point of shippers there (as in loyalty to your OTP!)

omg, looks at skin color and here I thought I was brown skinned and Latino. Damn I should have known, other peeps know better than me ;)

As for race, I haven't seen a lot of that stuff yet but it doesn't sound racist to me. Though I could see why people would feel it's racist the EDoctor preferring the white woman over the black one but it really isn't racist. By contrast there's serious racism issues with the Buffyverse that made me most uncomfortable in Buffy season 7 and Angel season 5.

Exactly, Buffy didn't have any minority characters as regulars, and Smallville totally marginalized Pete.

Whereas DW only has quite a small cast, but in series one for instance, when there was just the Doctor, Rose, Jack, and Rose's mother and ex boyfriend, they still had one of those characters played by a minority. Mickey becoming more important in season 2 as well. The Runaway Bride saw Donna's fiance be black, and half the church was therefore using black members of his family and friends. And in season 3, with the female lead, and her family all being black, it's not like RTD isn't trying.

It does remind me of when the kittens were one of many factions of Buffy fandom upset at how their ship was handled, and suddenly started yelling that their outrage was more justified because of anti gay agendas being promoted. I was upset at Tara's death too, but she was not the only love interest to be killed off, and it wasn't because she was gay (Joss quite plainly adore her character for a start). Martha was promoted as the new companion, and people feel let down at now feeling that she was more of a rebound companion, and that the Doctor/Martha never were that shippy, but that does not mean it's fair to accuse RTD of having "serious issues"

["Joss quite plainly adore her character for a start"]

I'm not sure if I totally buy that, considering how she was summarily killed off to give Willow a flashy story. That really does piss me off. As does Willow being Joss's favorite.

Oh I was disappointed with Tara's death too (after she and Buffy became close in season 6, it was disappointing to say the least when only Willow and Dawn were shown to mourn for her!) But I do think it all got a bit wanky and strange when the Kittens started looking through all these past examples of gay characters being mistreated (a lot of their rants can still be seen on jumptheshark), when they'd still be watching the show in all its "bigoted" glory, if Tara was around

The people suggesting they might not watch any more because the treatment of Martha was racist, I suspect would still be watching season 4 if Martha was still a regular. And people who are so offended at Martha having to serve as John Smith's maid in HN/FOB really seem to miss the point of that episode (it was an historical episode, what choice was there but to have the black companion in a lowly position!) in order to now back up their outrage at Martha being rebound companion to Rose. When the truth is that Martha has been pretty much kicking ass all season. Even if some of her fans scare me :P

["But I do think it all got a bit wanky and strange when the Kittens started looking through all these past examples of gay characters being mistreated (a lot of their rants can still be seen on jumptheshark), when they'd still be watching the show in all its "bigoted" glory, if Tara was around"]

Well, I think the show was bigoted but I'm still a fan because of its good points. I saw a post about that that brought up how minority characters in general get treated/portrayed on BTVS/ATS and the picture isn't pretty. And the ones people think of least of all, the Gypsies, look how they got stereotyped and portrayed as deceitful and obsessed with revenge. With regard to gay characters on BTVS, there isn't a huge amount of them that jump to mind. Faith was bisexual and that wasn't a positive portrait. Larry was gay and was portrayed positively once he came out (but he did get killed off). What does stick out though is Andrew
is a pretty negative portrait of a gay guy. I can imagine how somebody might take Tara's death badly after a season of Andrew. And Kennedy wasn't exactly a positive picture either. Oh and Scott Hope turned out to be gay and when that's brought up he's said to be telling stories about Buffy, not very postive. And of course Willow's a negative portrayal, though I guess Joss doesn't see her that way.

See, I can understand and see the charges of racism. Not so much with Martha as a character (she kicked ass) but with a whole bunch of little things that add up. Mickey being a cowering little simp, Billy being essentially killed off when he dares to flirt with a white woman, Martha's family as servants. I think the problem we're running into here is the lack of explanation. While in HN/FoB the fact that Martha was stuck being a maid was actually addressed, the rest of the incidents were just...there, or dismissed. Why would the Master, of all individuals, be a racist? He wants to dominate everyone. And while I don't buy him as a woman-abuser either, at least Lucy got to shoot him.

Which episode was Billy?

Why would the Master, of all individuals, be a racist? He wants to dominate everyone.

The Master was dominating everyone though, he wasn't singling the black characters out for racist abuse. I winced the most for the Doctor in that episode honestly. I'm just not sure how else they could they have written the Jones's family suffering at his hands? Being in chains like Jack, or living like dogs as the Doctor was, would have had its own issues. I was originally thinking that maybe it might have been better for Tish to be one of the massgers instead, so that both black females didn't end up as maids, but then there's people talking about Tish fitting a Jezebel sterotype. So that might have caused offense too. And there was Martha leading the resistent movement, which her brother was supposed to have been involved with also

I do agree the writing of Mickey wasn't always the greatest, but the most attention seems to be focused on Martha, which is what's making me wonder if some of it isn't about people getting more attached to her character, and lashing out at the shows choice to temporarily write her out

Billy was the nice police officer in Blink.

The Master was dominating everyone though, he wasn't singling the black characters out for racist abuse.

Well, it's the mere fact of him dressing them up in servant uniforms. Why would the Master know enough about Earth history to do that? It implies a sort of universal racism that was just shoddy writing. No, I do not think it was deliberate racism, just poorly thought out in terms of implication. The fact that it came on the heels of Martha forced into servitude just made it look bad.

I in no way think Martha's unrequited love thing was racist, I just think it was slightly anti-feminist, though the end in which she left on her own terms was pretty awesome, so it's all good.

Billy was the nice police officer in Blink.

Oh okay. But he wasn't killed off though was he, he just made a life for himself back in the past? And Sally seemed quite attracted to him, so it was more of a what could have been story, then his being punished for flirting with her...

No, I do not think it was deliberate racism, just poorly thought out in terms of implication.

Yesh, maybe it would have been better to write that differently and not had the maids outfits, although still I think that fandom criticizing HN/FOB is incredibly unfair, when the novel was already written and set in 1913, and the racist of the time was addressed and condemned.

I in no way think Martha's unrequited love thing was racist, I just think it was slightly anti-feminist, though the end in which she left on her own terms was pretty awesome, so it's all good.

Yes! I could have done without all the crush references. But, with all the complaints of Martha faithfully serving the Doctor, she was actually the one that was ultimately able to walk away and make her own life. Poor Rose was left sobbing on a beach (with both Nine and Ten making the decision to send her away in POTW and Doomsday, and her Dad ultimately grabbing her for the parallel world). People are arguing that Rose had more agency than Martha, but if anything Rose became much much clingier in season 2, than Martha ever did.

I think that fandom criticizing HN/FOB is incredibly unfair, when the novel was already written and set in 1913, and the racist of the time was addressed and condemned.

Word. I thought it was handled very well. Same goes for Martha getting her bitch on about the racist stereotypes in "The Shakespeare Code", for that matter. That's why I think these other incidents are just a matter of poor planning that is extremely unfortunate. I would call it racist, yes, just as I would call a lot of the show anti-feminist as well, but this is all a matter of "maybe you should think a little more about your implications, RTD" than anything else.

As for Rose and Martha, I just don't get the comparisons people make. Rusty, though, seems to want to amplify it, which is damaging. I mean, does everyone have to crush on the Doctor here? Rose, Jack, Martha, Lynda, Reinette, Joan (ok that one was necessary), the Master, Sarah Jane.

That's why I think these other incidents are just a matter of poor planning that is extremely unfortunate. I would call it racist, yes, just as I would call a lot of the show anti-feminist as well, but this is all a matter of "maybe you should think a little more about your implications, RTD" than anything else.

I can agree with that :) Stuff like the maids outfits should probably have been changed. But yes on not getting the whole Rose Vs Martha thing as saying anything about race relations. I loved Rose's role in PotW, but if we're talking about her having more free choice in that episode, and being so much more impressive than Martha was in LotTL, that's just not true. Martha travelling on her own for a year, after what the Master did to her world, and having the determination to visit all those different countries, is every bit as impressive as Rose in PotW. Yet there's arguments that it meant nothing because it was all the Doctor's plan, and Martha was merely acting as his servant :/

I think a lot of people are lashing out because they were dissatisfied with the ending (hey, I was too), but to somehow label Martha's departure as racist kinda demeans the actual fight against racism, here. I mean, the woman made her own decisions and did everything by her own terms. Where's the argument here? Can't we focus on the stuff that's actually stupid and possibly degrading if we're going to complain?

And seriously, everyone at the time was arguing that Rose didn't have enough free will in PotW (which I loved as well), but now they've shifted positions, apparently.

Conclusion? Fandom is silly. Once again.

From what I'm following of the f_w discussion, Martha's position in LotTL was only about spreading the word of the white man, and she really didn't do anything clever or worthwhile off her own bat, (And this being posted in a comm for fans of Martha) and ends up kneeling to the Master (umm yeah, and won that moment hands down!)

Whereas Rose was a skilled and intelligent Goddess in PotW now, and this from the people who generally couldn't stand Rose at the time

Conclusion? Fandom is silly. Once again.

So yes, indeed

I don't watch TW, but I'm interested in knowing exactly who is making all the fuss. Is it blacks, or is it whites? Because, as someone made the comment above, the main ones that were crying out to ban Huckleberry Finn, Tom Sawyer, and books like that, were white Americans. Speaking for myself and other blacks that I know, we feel slighted when the racism isn't portrayed because it's denying that that part of history existed and makes it seem like we had no cause for complaint. I think part of it is that portraying this ugly part of American (hell...WORLD) history is uncomfortable for some (not ALL, some) white people because it makes them uncomfortable and they may feel that it'll start up something whereas they would rather it just stay in the past never to be spoken of...even though it still goes on today, but that's another story for another day.

It seems to be a mixture. There's a lot of people describing themselves as people of colour, and a lot of people describing themselves as privileged white chicks.

And the sad thing is that, of all the shows I watch (I mostly watch American Sci Fi), Martha is one of the few important regulars who is black. And yet people are now hating DW so much that they're saying they will no longer let their kids watch it/ever rec it again. And it's like, maybe there were some areas for improvement, but come on!

Martha did kick ass all season, over and over again. The original companion, Rose, dropped out of school, lived on a council estate, and worked in retail. Martha was introduced as being from a far classier family, is an intelligent medical student, and has been way less clingy than Rose was. I really am boggling at people saying that Martha didn't have any exciting adventures, but spend the season in servitude to the Doctor, because that is so not what I saw (Aside from the two-parter from 1913 England, which was based on a novel that had already been written, and involved the Doctor and Martha needing to go into hiding. The sad fact is Martha kind of had to become maid in that time, because she had no other option. And Rose had also previously complained about situations where she ends up serving again, that the Doctor tended to land them in as well. It's just a Doctor/companion thing).

The major differences between the two companions, was that the Doctor fell in love with Rose, and he liked Martha a lot, but didn't love her as he did Rose. But he didn't treat Martha half as badly as her more er committed fans will make out. You'd think he was making rude comparisons all season from the way people go on about it, when in fact he mentioned something along the lines of "Rose would know what to do, but you're too new" in one episode just after he had met Martha. And that was it. Martha herself when leaving admitted the Doctor did like her, but he just didn't like her romantically in the way that she wanted him too.

Torchwood is the spin-off, and that come in for criticism from an American in the past, because there's only one Asian regular in a case of five regulars. Umm yeah, because it's set in Wales *sighs*

Yes the Master did make Martha's family his servants in TLOTT.

Well, he certainly wasn't going to make them ambassadors, or guards, or "employees" in trusted positions, since they were the enemy. I have a lot of mixed feelings about some of your points, but overall, they were very well argued.

Thanks! :)

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