10 episodes of Angel that show how it was more than Buffy redux”
Episodes listed are To Shanshu In L.A from season 1, Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been from season 2, Fredless, Birthday, Waiting In The Wings, AND Forgiving from season 3, Soulless from season 4, and finally Smile Time, A Hole In The World, and Not Fade Away from season 5.
To me that that list is seriously failing when it comes to season 2, what about episodes like Darla and Reunion?!? Home from season 4 also deserves a mention IMO, as well as You're Welcome from season 5. Fredless is a cute episode and all, but is it really comparable to the best episodes of the series?
The writer of the article talks about season 3 clearly being the overall best season, "As with Buffy, fans of Angel argue over which is the best season. Is it the second, which properly begins the larger story and gives it scope? The fifth, which wraps up that story with some hard but inspiring lessons? Or the third, which… okay, there shouldn’t really be any contest here. It’s the third. Most of Whedon’s top-shelf writers were heavily involved in season three (including Greenwalt, Minear, Noxon, and Fury), as the plotting became more complex and sophisticated, with the characters making crucial decisions that didn’t always pan out. Most importantly, the third season properly introduces Fred, who soon becomes the clever, sunny, quirky fan favourite
I don't remember season 3 being a particular fan favourite, but then I was thinking about it and I'm not sure that Angel does have universally (well more or less) agreed "best seasons" like Buffy does? Some people really love season 4 and the heavy serialisation there, while some absolutely hate it for what it does to Cordelia's character. Some really love the darker moments of season 3 with Holtz and Wesley, but then I saw a lot of dislike for "Soap Opera elements" at the time when season 3 was first airing, the Angel/Cordelia romance, dorky Angel, and the birth of Conner were by no means universally popular. With Buffy it's generally pretty easy to point to seasons 2, 3, and 5 as the clear favourites, but every Angel season seems to get a LOT of debate between love or hate from what I've seen.
To go off on a tangent for a moment, it seems like most of the hate for season 4 is because of Cordelia's character being lost that year, but I'd argue that already started happening in season 3. The first half of season 3 was great for portraying a more mature Cordelia, but the more they pushed the Angel/Cordelia romance, the more they started writing Cordelia as a Saint and Mother figure for Conner which just didn't work IMO and rang really false. Again at the time I remember a ton of controversy at how Cordelia was being written, especially all the fan jokes on the season 3 finale when she's carried off to the Heavens with twinkly lights, so it's interesting that season 4 takes all the blame for "ruining her character". Technically season 4 was not Cordelia any more, so there's actually more of a justification for the writing of her that year, in comparison to the saintly blonde that Double Or Nothing introduced to us. I remember speculation at the time was that it was down to David Greenwalt getting too carried away with seeing Cordelia as perfect, but I'm wondering now if it was more about fast-tracking Cordelia character arc to becoming a higher being, and thus wrapping up her journey? I remember at the end of season 4 that Joss said something to that effect of having nowhere else to take Cordelia's character at that point
It seemed that Joss allowed behind the scenes drama to affect the writing for Cordelia in quite negative ways unfortunately. I've noticed that posters on
ohnotheydidnt get super-defensive if you imply that the treatment of Charisma was about anything other than Joss firing her for getting pregnant, but I would argue there were a lot of weird vibes in season 3 as well, there was definitely speculation at the time as to whether the Ascension was a way of writing Cordelia out. It's just a shame that Joss allowed whatever BTS drama there was to make its way onto the writing of the character
And this entry is starting to get really O/T, so maybe I should stop there :P But here's a poll anyway for favourite Angel season!
[Poll #2017986]
Episodes listed are To Shanshu In L.A from season 1, Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been from season 2, Fredless, Birthday, Waiting In The Wings, AND Forgiving from season 3, Soulless from season 4, and finally Smile Time, A Hole In The World, and Not Fade Away from season 5.
To me that that list is seriously failing when it comes to season 2, what about episodes like Darla and Reunion?!? Home from season 4 also deserves a mention IMO, as well as You're Welcome from season 5. Fredless is a cute episode and all, but is it really comparable to the best episodes of the series?
The writer of the article talks about season 3 clearly being the overall best season, "As with Buffy, fans of Angel argue over which is the best season. Is it the second, which properly begins the larger story and gives it scope? The fifth, which wraps up that story with some hard but inspiring lessons? Or the third, which… okay, there shouldn’t really be any contest here. It’s the third. Most of Whedon’s top-shelf writers were heavily involved in season three (including Greenwalt, Minear, Noxon, and Fury), as the plotting became more complex and sophisticated, with the characters making crucial decisions that didn’t always pan out. Most importantly, the third season properly introduces Fred, who soon becomes the clever, sunny, quirky fan favourite
I don't remember season 3 being a particular fan favourite, but then I was thinking about it and I'm not sure that Angel does have universally (well more or less) agreed "best seasons" like Buffy does? Some people really love season 4 and the heavy serialisation there, while some absolutely hate it for what it does to Cordelia's character. Some really love the darker moments of season 3 with Holtz and Wesley, but then I saw a lot of dislike for "Soap Opera elements" at the time when season 3 was first airing, the Angel/Cordelia romance, dorky Angel, and the birth of Conner were by no means universally popular. With Buffy it's generally pretty easy to point to seasons 2, 3, and 5 as the clear favourites, but every Angel season seems to get a LOT of debate between love or hate from what I've seen.
To go off on a tangent for a moment, it seems like most of the hate for season 4 is because of Cordelia's character being lost that year, but I'd argue that already started happening in season 3. The first half of season 3 was great for portraying a more mature Cordelia, but the more they pushed the Angel/Cordelia romance, the more they started writing Cordelia as a Saint and Mother figure for Conner which just didn't work IMO and rang really false. Again at the time I remember a ton of controversy at how Cordelia was being written, especially all the fan jokes on the season 3 finale when she's carried off to the Heavens with twinkly lights, so it's interesting that season 4 takes all the blame for "ruining her character". Technically season 4 was not Cordelia any more, so there's actually more of a justification for the writing of her that year, in comparison to the saintly blonde that Double Or Nothing introduced to us. I remember speculation at the time was that it was down to David Greenwalt getting too carried away with seeing Cordelia as perfect, but I'm wondering now if it was more about fast-tracking Cordelia character arc to becoming a higher being, and thus wrapping up her journey? I remember at the end of season 4 that Joss said something to that effect of having nowhere else to take Cordelia's character at that point
It seemed that Joss allowed behind the scenes drama to affect the writing for Cordelia in quite negative ways unfortunately. I've noticed that posters on
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
And this entry is starting to get really O/T, so maybe I should stop there :P But here's a poll anyway for favourite Angel season!
[Poll #2017986]
(no subject)
Date: 2015-07-27 03:51 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2015-07-27 04:05 pm (UTC)Anyway, I think the problem with Cordelia is that Joss knows a set number of arcs and personality types for women. She started off as The Bitch (which was a fantastic role, IMO) and once her character arc had surpassed that, he couldn't think of anywhere for her to go. So she got shoehorned into the Ascended/Mother/Saint, which is fairly universally uninteresting as a character trope and didn't fit anything we knew about her, and she somehow went from one of the best characters in the 'verse to someone whose final death didn't matter to me whatsoever.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2015-07-27 04:28 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2015-07-27 04:40 pm (UTC)Gabrielle
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2015-07-27 05:04 pm (UTC)I do love Season 2, though, for the whole Darla and Drusilla arc.
I'm working on a meta about what made Angel groundbreaking at the time. Nearly every article I've read recently completely misses the mark.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2015-07-27 05:56 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2015-07-27 06:08 pm (UTC)I think Joss is on record as saying S3 is his favorite too, and I just don't get it. There's absolutely nothing about that season that stands out to me, whereas S2 has the Darla arc, and S4, while being a big mess in a lot of ways, puts together a strong/creepy string of episodes with the Jasmine arc, and S5 has a strong central metaphor and a number of enjoyable episodes. S3 I just remember as being a bunch of boring baby blahblah, mumbly Holtz (I know lots of people liked him, but I never found him interesting), and Cordelia's characterization going completely down the drain.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2015-07-27 06:22 pm (UTC)Brilliant, brilliant season, though there are a few episodes that aren't that great, among which I'd personally include Fredless. I like Fred fine, but I don't think that's a great episode.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2015-07-27 06:30 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2015-07-27 06:53 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2015-07-27 07:58 pm (UTC)Season 5 is my favorite, for sure. It's the only season I own on DVD.
A lot of it has to do with Spike, who is my favorite, but I just enjoy the premise of the season. I also like almost all of the episodes.
I'm not a giant fan of Season 3. It's allright. I don't like Season 4 and not just because of what happened to Cordelia. I just wasn't a fan of teenage Connor or Jasmine. The only thing I liked from that season is dark Wesley. And Lilah, who I adore.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2015-07-27 08:22 pm (UTC)I don't think I have a favorite season. Every year it seemed like there were things I liked juxtaposed against things I really didn't. I'd say... 2.5 to 3.5? Can you start and end mid-way through a season? :P I never enjoyed Angel like BTVS but at the same time it never angered me like Buffy.
Most importantly, the third season properly introduces Fred, who soon becomes the clever, sunny, quirky fan favourite
Yeah, I suspect the writer is showing a little bias there. I wouldn't call Fred a fan favorite, tbh. For a long time, my feel of other folks was she was like Tara. Most people liked her or didn't mind her (except when she came between Gunn and Wes), but not many I saw were 'fav character!' or anything.
Random possibly unpopular opinion... S5 doesn't match the show to me. It sticks out and feels like something the writers tacked on as an allegory for them compromising with the WB than an organic Angel story. To me, the show was always about finding your place in the world, inner peace and family. S5 is kinda the opposite. While I enjoy some stuff in S5 like TGIQ, it feels like it doesn't count. I'm not all 'not canon!' about it, but I have this unbidden mental switch-off that the whole 'verse ends with Chosen/Home.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2015-07-27 09:58 pm (UTC)It's a tricky issue because based on what I've read, Charisma Carpenter was treated horribly on set during the later seasons. But there seems to be this weird backwards logic in fandom that this means all fandom criticism of S4-S5, and Whedon's showrunning, and Cordelia's narrative, is of course merited and rational and Objectively Meritorious, and surely that's nonsense. In fact, the impression I've gotten is that ~righteous indignation on Charisma's behalf is often wielded as a tool by fandom to vent its frustration over Cordy's story not turning out the way people wanted it to, and to try and justify that frustration on Moral Grounds (as opposed to, "we just don't like it")… which is not the same thing as her story being Bad, Period.
If anything, when I was watching S4 whilst isolated from mainstream fandom, I thought it did a great job of retroactively repairing much of the damage that could've been done during S3--I thought the story of Cordelia being tricked into a trap by TPTB through hubris, and buying into a Saint Cordelia Champion Narrative, was a compelling one and more emotionally honest and psychologically plausible than the story we seemed to be getting in S3, even though it was tragic. Of course, there is the larger issue of AtS having a gross recurring issue with turning its women into vessels who then get hollowed out and die, but I'm a bit suspicious of how much of Blanket Fandom Indignation for this show gets focused on Cordy's arc to the exclusion of almost all else.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2015-07-27 11:06 pm (UTC)I wasn't aware of was going on BTS during the time it was airing, and it wasn't until very recently that I heard about that incident in particular. Needless to say, it's disappointing to hear about the tension that happened and what conspired because of it. I'm just relieved that Joss and Charisma have reconciled since then.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2015-07-27 11:08 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2015-07-28 01:23 am (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2015-07-28 01:44 am (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2015-07-28 04:46 am (UTC)And season three??? Really? The season of Darla's redemption-via-motherhood? NHFT.
/pressed Darla stan
Now that I've got out of the way. Angel is such a wack show, man. As much as I HATEHATEHATE some of the things it chose to be, I still can't write any season off completely because EPIC FUCKERY will usually be followed with some kind of brilliance (e.g. Fred being fridged --> the Illyria arc). I'm choosing season 2 sheerly because it lacks the EPIC FUCKERY part. /trolololol
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2015-07-28 07:31 am (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2015-07-29 01:35 am (UTC)I agree that the article seemed very bias and just...I feel like there were episodes that served the series as a whole better than some that they chose, that represented what the show was. I LOVE Fredless, its one of my personal favorites because Fred is one of my favorite characters, but I'd never put it on a top 10 list for someone wanting to see what the show was about. A character study episode maybe? But even then, Supersymmetry fits her so much better as a character study. I feel like reading the article that the writer didn't even get her character, nothing he described really grabbed me for the reasons I loved her. (Also, Fred was one of my favorite characters in general but I have never gotten the sense she was a fan favorite. NEVER. I've known people who hated her. So that confuses me more. Have things changed?)
Also totally agree about S3. For me S3 just doesn't do it. There were a lot of good singular episodes but there's been more than once that I've stopped in the middle of a rewatch getting actually bored with S3 and ending up watching something else. It is not the best season of the show. It has some good story arcs and some really good character moments and stories. But it just doesn't stay with you in the same way that a lot of the other seasons do.
Also, poor S1, I feel bad it doesn't get more love. For a first season, its actually really good, even if it is more of a one off episode, it still holds small arcs and develops arcs. Kate being a big one that people just seem to forget about.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2015-07-31 08:51 am (UTC)Agreed that with Ats is hard to choose a favorite season because with every season the good is very good but the bad is also often pretty bad. Still, if I had to choose I'm afraid I'd go with season 3 because I'm a sucker for Wesley and all the Connor-induced drama but, yes, the treatment of Cordelia was abysmal (in season 4 too) and I never bought the Cordy/Angel romance either...
/it seems like most of the hate for season 4 is because of Cordelia's character being lost that year, but I'd argue that already started happening in season 3/ - Oh, absolutely.
/Technically season 4 was not Cordelia any more, so there's actually more of a justification for the writing of her that year, in comparison to the saintly blonde that Double Or Nothing introduced to us./ - LOL, agreed but seeing Cordelia and Connor together was just the icing on the cake, bleah...
/but I'm wondering now if it was more about fast-tracking Cordelia character arc to becoming a higher being, and thus wrapping up her journey?/ - Oh, yes, the problem with Ats is definitely that, to follow grandiose plot arcs, character personalities sometimes end up getting warped in absurd ways.
/I remember at the end of season 4 that Joss said something to that effect of having nowhere else to take Cordelia's character at that point/ - Actually, I think Cordelia's arc was pretty much done by the end of season 1. Season 2 was all a repetition of the same arc and the season 3 one was pretty abysmal, so...
And I see that the pool crowned season 5 as the best season, which I find a bit weird? (Except for the fact that season 5 has Illyria, of course, that's awesome.)
Season 5 seems to be the favorite season of those who are mainly BtVS fans because it is the less tied to long plot arcs and mostly composed of one-shots episodes. Also Spike.
But how can you not be fascinated by the terrific complex plot of season 3/4? (With the Cordelia exception, of course.)
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2015-08-07 11:43 am (UTC)(no subject)
From: