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[frelling_tralk]

Buffy Rewatch: Relationships


Lots of discussion about Spike and Xander led to my own rant about Xander Harris and the Bewitched Bewildered, and Bothered episode! (I would disagree though with the emphasis placed on The Pack and possessed Xander's assault of Buffy, because the structure of season 1 was very different and so I don't place all that much importance on Xander deciding to pretend that it never happened and he has no memories of it.)

I do however have a much bigger problem with Xander planning to use magic to forcibly make Cordelia love him so that he could then dump and humiliate her. Looking back now the Bewitched, Bewildered, and Bothered episode is insanely creepy, especially when Amy warns Xander how insane and desperate a love spell could make Cordelia, and he just gloats that he wants her to unable to eat or sleep or thinking of anything but him! If anything the episode presented Xander and Cordelia in a very unbalanced way as Xander mostly seems annoyed at being dismissed by Cordelia and being made fun of by her friends, she is the one who seems to feel genuinally heartbroken when we are shown the necklace of Xander's that she is secretly wearing. Xander talks to Amy more about wanting payback and to be the one to dump Cordelia, and he's even willing to shrug off the spell's failure as no biggie the second he belives that Buffy might be expressing an interest in him. IMO His primary reason for wanting Cordelia under a love spell was because of his ego

And really there was never that much justification for Xander to react in the way that he did. Okay Cordelia blurted out her wishes to break up at a Valentine's Dance in her usual tactless way, but she also says she's sorry and she didn't mean to do it this way. For high school Cordelia the break-up speech is postively nice even as she never says anything unpleasant about Xander or that her friends feel like he's not good enough, just that they are kidding themselves and that they don't fit together. And however shallow her reasons for breaking up with Xander might have been, it was still her right to break up with him for any reason she pleased!

And then the day after Amy does the spell Xander approaches Cordelia when she is surrounded by her friends, and he is clearly hoping to see her grovel and humilate herself in front of them when he asks if she has anything to say to him, so how the spell became something romantic to bring the two of them back together is just bizarre to me! And the episode doesn't just end with Cordelia having ~having learned her lesson~ by telling off all her friends and choosing Xander in front of them, it also has Buffy thanking Xander for really coming through and him joking about how it was touch and go for a minute there, even though what they're actually talking about is Xander resisting the urge to take advantage of his friend when she was under a spell. I honestly don't know what Marti was thinking with this episode. (And soo disappointing that Gabrielle didn't get to finish her feminist write-up of Buffy episodes :/

And the thing is that if that episode featured anyone but Xander and his automatic nice guy shield, surely that role would have been clearly presented as the villain and Buffy would be dismissing them as a creepy and controlling little dweeb, the way she did other characters such as the boy who got turned down for a date in The Prom and planned retribution, orWarren's plans to dominate Katrina after she ended things with him. But because it's Xander that episode just gets shrugged off at the end with Buffy thanking him for not doing anything worse, and then he actually gets rewarded with the girl. I get the feeling we're even supposed to feel sorry for him when Amy hits on him too and he realises that Buffy's interest in him is only a spell.

I wonder if the Troika from season 6 were possibly the writers attempt to finally be honest about what it really means to use magic to control a woman, the way they could never bring themselves to do with Xander? Yeah okay he never had any plans to take advantage of Cordelia's body with that spell, but he was attempting to control his ex-girlfriend's emotions in a really sick way in order to get the power back in their dynamic. For some reason the writers seemed to feel that Giles yelling at Xander about being careless with magic, and Willow being mad at him because of her crush on him, were adequate consequences for that? Cordelia's only reaction was being flattered because she believed that Xander did the love spell to win her back :/



ETA And okay LOL, the spyware on this entry is now giving me pop-ups on "find a love spell now"

Comments

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Yeah I remember early interviews where Joss seemed to see Xander as a role model for the males in the audience and that really bothers me. Supposedly Xander was so great because he admired Buffy as a powerful woman and was happy to be her sidekick, except he wasn't? From as early as Teacher's Pet he's having a fantasy about Xander being the true hero while Buffy is some vapid girl in a sexy red dress being attacked and swooning over Xander when he rescues her. He was constantly complaining about his manhood, ie in Halloween Buffy apparently broke the guy code by coming to Xander's rescue, or in The Wish when he's all excited at finding out that he's a badass vampire in the AU and sees it as his answer to how threatened he is by Angel.

Just because he found it hot that a conventionally attractive woman like Buffy could also kick ass and handle herself, doesn't suddenly make him a great feminist when it was always clear to me that he had a lot of traditional ideas about men and women. He was never happy being the sidekick, in The Harvest he immediately starts complaining about being 'less than a man' when Buffy doesn't want him to come with her and get into danger, so I don't know where the idea comes from that he was happy to be a woman's sidekick. Maybe later on in the series, but definitely not when they were all in high school. Having to accept the inevitable truth that he wasn't as strong and powerful as a girl with superpowers doesn't mean that being her sidekick was the ideal state of affairs for him. At the very least his fantasy in Teacher's Pet should have seen him fighting alongside Buffy as an equal, instead of charging to Buffy's rescue as she is helpless and defeated, if he really was that into women being equally as strong or stronger than him

And the argument about him being so awesome because he's attracted to strong woman, I hate when his interaction with Kendra in What's My Line is used as an example of that. Like it's unusual and something to be be praised that a teenage boy is attracted to traditionally beautiful and in shape women like Buffy and Kendra! And then some people say it's so awesome how Xander loses all interest in Kendra when she starts stammering and isn't as strong a person as he thinks. Yeah how awesome that Xander takes a sexual interest in a slayer, and then immediately loses any interest in talking to her the second he realises that she's shy around guys and he's therefore no longer attracted to her?

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Yeah I remember early interviews where Joss seemed to see Xander as a role model for the males in the audience and that really bothers me.

Reading that his real goal was to create a male role model bothered me because once again, it's all about the guys really, not the women; but also - WHO THE HELL IS HE TALKING ABOUT? I don't hate Xander but I do take him to task for his shit, if that makes sense. (OTOH he's probably a big reason I have no desire to go back and do S1-3 rewatches.)

He never stops slut-shaming Buffy until after Selfless when she finally confronts him and The Lie is exposed. But he still whines about Anya and how she ripped out his heart (huh?) to Andrew.

Basically Xander slut shames and is possessive and judgemental towards the three women he is sexually attracted to, regardless of actual relationship status: Buffy, Cordy and Anya. Willow never comes in for that same behavior from him because she's "one of the guys", which allows him to also overlook her in S1-2.

But this is part of the reason why Grave bothers me (among a whole host of reasons); Xander's "unconditional love" for Willow has NEVER been in doubt, even if he wasn't "in love" with her. He's never been abusive to her, just neglectful. the worst overt action that he's probably done to Willow (that I recall) is harming her relationship with Buffy with The Lie. Anya is the one who deserve to hear this from him, or even Buffy, not Willow. They are the ones he's wronged that season (and earlier).

this in a season where Riley comes back as the paragon of mental health to whom Buffy apologizes, and Giles comes sweeping in to save the day full of power borrowed from a coven of women? And Buffy only has to realize that she needs to focus on taking care of Dawnie and get over herself? Just NO to any of that.

You already know how I feel about Riley getting away with shit that is egregiously wrong, so it's interesting that Xander identifies with Riley, and they both get away with a lot of awful shit - he likes Riley as an idealized version of himself, the Soldier, as a guy friend who he can pal around with; Xander is constantly whining about the lack of male friends in his life while doing nothing about it. I think part of his speech to Buffy is also because he wants her to keep him around for himself (He's obviously not putting her own needs first, because that doesn't occur to him.)

he never had any plans to take advantage of Cordelia's body with that spell

Not as a stated intent, but I'm not comfortable guessing how he actually would behave if he got the intended results. the situation is comparable with Willow in TR. Willow's intent had nothing to do with Tara's body, "just" her mind; she just wanted to stop the arguing. Xander's relationship with Cordy has been very much proto-Spuffy, snark and avowals of hatred followed by spontaneous sex in the janitors' closet. there's no telling what would actually happen once Cordy "fell in love" with him all over again.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Yeah I have no idea what Joss was ever talking about there because Xander seems like the furthest thing from a role model to me, but more the writers portraying a very typical teenage boy. Which is fine in itself, but don't then try and tell me that he's extra special and a role model

And yeah I think that Xander totally identified with Riley and seized on that relationship as Buffy finally dating the right guy who 'comes along once in a lifetime', 'is holding nothing back' etc, when really how would Xander know anything about their relationship? The only reason he even knew about Riley's doubts about Buffy's feelings were because the guy flat out told him, and even then he was clearly surprised and taken-aback at hearing that, so where did he get off acting like the great insightful know it all in ITW!

I also thought it was telling that he reacted quite strongly to Buffy saying that she saw Riley as dependable, and he's all 'what is he State Farm'. I think that Xander saw himself as that dependable guy that Buffy should have chosen, and he never got over her dating Angel for as long as she did.

It's funny because out of context I could kind of like the friendship moment between Xander and Buffy in IWMTLY when Buffy is beating herself up about being self-involved with guys and Xander very sweetly says that 'What! I don't think you're like that', but then it's like isn't that exactly what you did tell her in your speech in ITW about how she should run after Riley and make it up to him, without having any idea of the circumstances behind why Buffy was so mad with Riley??? So that IWMTLY scene of Xander acting just shocked at Buffy blaming herself for messing up with guys never made any sense to me at all when clearly Buffy was feeling so bad about how things ended with Riley partly because her friend did make it seem like it was all her fault. Even in Triangle he's lying in bed with Anya and talking about what a disaster all of Buffy's relationships are, and how sooner or later you have to wonder who is really at fault. And that's when 19 year old Buffy had had a whole two relationships of hers not work out...

ETA And I agree that we can't say for sure how Xander would have reacted to Cordelia throwing himself at him under the spell, possibly he would have rationalised responding to her advances, but mostly the episode gave me the feeling that all he was focused on was revenge and shaming Cordelia

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Xander seems like the furthest thing from a role model to me

RIGHT? Apparently you and I have very different lenses to Joss/M.E.

so where did he get off acting like the great insightful know it all

That's pretty consistent with his character from the get-go, probably something else he learned from his dad but our culture reinforces: "Me Tarzan, you Jane, me make decision because silly girl not know what best for you." (Angel, Giles, Hank, Riley and yes, Spike, all do it too.) He does it with all the women he "loves": possessive, jealous, controlling. "Mr. Insightful" ha a great big chip on his shoulder. He says to Buffy in SR, when she says that her personal life is none of his business, "It used to be." WHEN? She mostly went to Willow if anyone in the early seasons; he MADE it his business, but in S6 she actually shuts him out, so he pouts. Poor baby (not.)

In Ted he lectures Buffy that Ted's not a demon she can slay and says "There's some things you have to accept." Then Cordy passes by and he excuses himself so he can confront her in the hallway and insist that she go out with him. (then they decide to make out in the janitors closet.)
Riley will echo that later in Doomed (telling Buffy she's "stupid" for not wanting to start a relationship just yet), but also Spike in S6, insisting that Buffy come out to her friends about their affair.

Xander saw himself as that dependable guy that Buffy should have chosen, and he never got over her dating Angel for as long as she did.

Yes. Add him wanting to keep his one guy pal around, practicing the speech he wants to give to Anya on Buffy, + his history of thinking himself Mr Insightful Guy, = a pretty complicated mix of motives. Still infuriating though.

So that IWMTLY scene of Xander acting just shocked at Buffy blaming herself for messing up with guys never made any sense to me at all

Oh that scene is on my list of "great moments in btvs WTF-ery". Hello? Telling her someday she'll find a guy who appreciates her is the complete opposite of his ITW speech!

Ironically, in an episode before ITW (Shadow? LtF?) when Riley doesn't show up for patrol one night as promised, it's Xander who makes a cutting observation about that the next day, acknowledging that Riley was not "reliable". So ITW is bookended by two very contradictory statements from Xander. I don't know whether to call it "Xander is a complex guy" or "the writing from one episode to the next seems disjointed, did the writers watch the episodes they didn't write?"

Even in Triangle he's lying in bed with Anya and talking about what a disaster all of Buffy's relationships are

You just handed me a good excuse not to rewatch. ;/ Actually the Willow-Anya clash infuriates me - they're fighting over Xander, basically; just as Willow and Cordy clashed over Xander. The ordinary nerd whom women fight over is a TOTAL fanboy fantasy. (And maybe Joss' revenge for all the girls in school who failed to go out with him?) Gross. BB&B does hang a lantern on this trope and it could have been a great chance to really subvert it but - they don't. (I think Him actually does a better job with that idea but then again - it's not Xander, just some one-time character so there's no need to let RJ's skeeviness off the hook. Although in the shooting script for Him, Xander says twice that RJ didn't know the effects his jacket had, so he was as much a victim as the girl. Extra cookies to whomever took that out.)

And that's when 19 year old Buffy had had a whole two relationships of hers not work out

It's not OOC for Xander to throw stones (who the HELL is he to talk?) and I'm sure a lot of people do that IRL when they're own relationships are in a good place; they see through the lens of their current situation and judge accordingly. Unfortunately, Xander seems to be the writers' mouthpiece oftentimes.

And you're prob right re: his intentions in BB&B, I admit I haven't rewatched. Whenever I do rewatch early episodes Xander's behavior just pops out at me all over again.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

He says to Buffy in SR, when she says that her personal life is none of his business, "It used to be." WHEN?

Very true! I remember in Amends when Xander attempted to apologise for being so hostile about Angel, and acknowledged that he hadn't made it very easy for Buffy to talk to him about Angel (I think that was Amends?) As you say, it was usually Willow that she turned too for relationship problems. If Buffy had cried on Xander's lap in The Prom over Angel breaking up with her, or if it was Xander that Buffy talked her Angel feelings through with in THLOD after Parker, then no doubt that would have just been used by fandom as a example of how unfair Buffy is to reject nice guy Xander and cry about the bad guys that she's dating to him!

Actually I can't think of many particularly close moments that she and Xander shared in the high school years especially, if anything it seemed like quite an awkward ~this doesn't usually happen with us~ moment when Buffy got upset over Theresa's death in Phases and hugs Xander, overall their interaction was more just that of buddies if that makes sense? Close friends sure, but not really someone that Xander should have ever expected to confide in him about who she's currently sleeping with, even if it wasn't a vampire.


Oh that scene is on my list of "great moments in btvs WTF-ery". Hello? Telling her someday she'll find a guy who appreciates her is the complete opposite of his ITW speech!

Ironically, in an episode before ITW (Shadow? LtF?) when Riley doesn't show up for patrol one night as promised, it's Xander who makes a cutting observation about that the next day, acknowledging that Riley was not "reliable". So ITW is bookended by two very contradictory statements from Xander. I don't know whether to call it "Xander is a complex guy" or "the writing from one episode to the next seems disjointed, did the writers watch the episodes they didn't write?"

I know, right! All I can think is that maybe it's that thing where you secretly do think of a friend as being really self-involved and awful with guys, but then when she starts beating herself up over that, then you have an automatic "don't put yourself down, you're not like that at all" kind of response? *g*

Actually the Willow-Anya clash infuriates me - they're fighting over Xander, basically; just as Willow and Cordy clashed over Xander. The ordinary nerd whom women fight over is a TOTAL fanboy fantasy.

And yep, I feel like a lot of Xander's relationships are like that. Cordelia was the most popular girl at school falling hardest for him and getting her heart broken when he cheated on her, Xander's best friend who can't get over him, even Faith (kind of a dicey example I know because of the later rape attempt) in The Zeppo is a pretty typical fantasy of a hot girl seducing a virgin and taking his virginity in one amazing night of passion. Then there's Anya stripping down in THLOD and quickly becoming rather obsessively devoted to him, with Buffy making the crack in ITW that Xander has no room to talk about her and Riley's relationship when he lets Anya follow him around like a puppy and treats her as a convienience. And of course it's ultimately Xander who rejects Anya because he doesn't want to get as serious as she does, and Anya is incredibly jealous in First Date when Xander gets a hot new date when she's still not over him etc

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I'm puzzled by fans who explain Xander's reactions to Buffy/Angel in S1-2 mostly on the basis of "he hates vampires because of Jesse" and dismiss/whitewash his jealousy. Jesse was a "Gotcha!" device; I don't think we're supposed to see him as important to the narrative? I think people want to excuse Xander, because I saw a very jealous guy. (I loathe jealousy, it's an attempt to control someone else's behavior: See Moulin Rouge.)

used by fandom as a example of how unfair Buffy is to reject nice guy Xander and cry about the bad guys that she's dating to him!

People do that anyway (Xander fans and/or Spike haters). Buffy just CANNOT win no matter what she does. I loathe the idea anyone can or should "love" someone else because they "deserve" it, as if love was a prize to be handed out.

I can actually feel for Xander a lot of times even when I think he's a dick; I like him in S4, S5 & S7 but I wouldn't describe him as a "nice guy" overall. The truly nice people I've known IRL wouldn't think to pull some of the shit Xander does. He can be nice, he can be decent, he can be a good friend AND he can be horrible. He's human. It makes him interesting, but not someone I'd want to know IRL.

overall their interaction was more just that of buddies if that makes sense?

Definitely. That line in SR is another "great moment in Xander WTF-ery" In PG? She calls him "one of the girls" but Willow's her true girl friend, Willow's the one who wants details about kissage. Which has a dark side: Willow living vicariously through Buffy. So Xander and Willow are really on opposite sides of the fence with Buffy in the middle. How they each feel about her and Angel has very little to do with Buffy herself in actuality. This is another reason why S6 and the SG neglect of Buffy's emotional state is hard to watch and maybe OTT at times but not terribly so. Or in Intervention. they say they need the really real Buffy but they still want the 'Bot at some level. (And fandom tends to repeat all of these tendencies. *hugs Buffy)

then you have an automatic "don't put yourself down, you're not like that at all" kind of response?

I think in a way it comes down to Joss/ME going for the emotional punch over logic as well as needing AB & C to happen (ie Riley leaving.Which could have been accomplished just fine without Xander in ITW, but then they really had to go for broke in humiliating Buffy. Because finding her boyfriend with vamp whores (thanks, Spike) and being blamed by him for his behavior with everything going on in Buffy's life is just not enough emotional torture, apparently.

And I really don't remember a lot of what you describe from S3. It is bad that Faith's attempted rape of Xander isn't handled with any seriousness, but then again is it really acknowledged that Faith raped/violated Riley and Buffy in WAY? Riley doesn't seem fussed by it, unlike Buffy. Because guys are unrapeable in our culture I guess.

Then there's Anya stripping down in THLOD

I HATE the fact that Anya's assertive sexuality is played as one big joke, although her stripping in Xander's basement is pretty squicky. And that she has to be punished and tamed/domesticated, only to be killed at the end with no real resolution of her relationship with Xander.

Buffy making the crack in ITW that Xander has no room to talk about her and Riley's relationship when he lets Anya follow him around like a puppy and treats her as a convienience.

Paging Season 6. Oh, Buffy.

because he doesn't want to get as serious as she does

In theory he doesn't want to turn into his father but in his hallucinations in HB it comes off as Anya's fault for being a bitter nagging shrew and Xander is the poor henpecked shlub. then for Xander to never really apologize or dealt with the fact that yes, he broke HER heart, ruined her life, took away friends, home, shared income etc. What woman in that situation wouldn't wish for a bit of revenge? She's just hurting. And I've never been able to follow the arguments as to why he was right to dump her; maybe she should have dumped his sorry ass. Weirdly enough, they actually had one of the longest relationships on the show. They could be adorable together a lot of the time.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Yeah I fanwank enough myself that I guess I should be more understanding of others doing it lol, but some Xander fans seem to really cling to Jesse's death being something deeply traumatic that is behind all of Xander's subsequent reactions to vampires, but there's just no basis for that on the show when the character never gets mentioned again after the pilot. Xander's dislike of Angel was always framed as jealously, when he first sees the guy and before he knows about him being a vampire, he's complaining to Willow about what an attractive man Angel is as they watch Buffy approach him in the Bronze

And yeah I thought they really took it too far with Anya in season 7 where they made such a joke out of her being rejected by everyone and practically begging Spike to sleep with her again, wtf! I really liked their scenes together in Entropy too, but the treatment of her character was mostly pretty crappy in season 7 sadly

And I wouldn't be surprised if Xander's doubts were partly about whether he could make it work with someone like Anya definitely. When they're singing their true feelings about one another in OMWF he acknowledges that he's not attracted to things like how greedy she is, and in the flash forwards from HB it's Anya who he imagines as having cheated on him with a demon. There were a lot of hints like that that he didn't see her as the ideal partner for him. Of course his doubts on the wedding day were panic about whether he would turn into his parens marriage, but even those doubts were kind of tied up in whether Anya would drive him to that behaviour through her cheating and nagging, and making their family a hostile place with her half demon kids