frelling_tralk | (no subject)

Angel?

1. Cordelia's character was not destroyed because of the pregnancy, season 3 already lost their handle on her when they decided to make her Angel's love interest. Episodes like Billy still had that old Cordelia spark, but by midway into season 3 Cordelia was being written terribly when she was completely hung up on Angel and would make comments about Angel being the only person that she cares about. It was also contrived how they suddenly tried turning her into a saint with the power to heal, it was later retconned with Skip joking about Cordelia being a pure and radiant Saint, please, but I'm still not sure if we were supposed to take the season 3 cliffhanger on face value or not at the time (I suspect yes based on the earlier writing from that season)

2. I don't really get why fandom was so stuck on Gunn/Fred being such a terrible couple with no chemistry. Yeah they were a bit too cutesy at times, but it seemed like everyone agreed on them having zero chemistry, and I always thought that they had just as many chemistry as any other couple and were hardly a Buffy/Riley situation? Actually I thought that they made a pretty sweet couple and much preferred them to Wesley/Fred

3. Eh I wasn't a big fan of Fred, she was okay, but I felt like at times the behind the scenes love for Amy Ackler came across a little too blatantly with how much they kept pushing how loveable Fred was and how much the other characters adored her. I much preferred when Fred turned into Illyria, she become one of my favourite Ats characters ever

4. Intellectually I could appreciate Wesley's character and the good intentions behind what he was doing, but I could never emotionally connect to darker Wesley or like him very much. I usually like the darker characters, but I was just never feeling it with Wesley, if anything I thought that at times he came across as downright creepy and disturbed (how he handled what he thought was his father, his attitude towards Fred and Lilah)

5. Honestly Ats isn't my favourite show because I never liked any of the characters much, including Angel lol, so my opinions might seem a little overtly negative XD Gunn was probably the least problematic character for me, and I would have loved to see him and Cordelia become an item in season 2, but I had a hard time connecting with most of the characters and the writing of their relationships

Edited 2015-02-09 18:59 (UTC)

but I could never emotionally connect to darker Wesley or like him very much

Ditto. All they did was take Wes and turn him into Angel, except somehow skeevier. Muh angst!

Usually I like the more morally ambiguous characters as well, I think that Wesley was the one case where I preferred the lighter and more bumbling version of a character! That was back when Internet was really slow and I used to read spoilers from the U.S. on what was happening on Buffy and Angel, and on the page I always took Wesley's side, so when I watched it myself for the first time I was surprised at how unsympathetic I found him. From what I remember (it's been a while since I watched Ats now!), he came across as pretty surly and self-indulgent in how he would wallow in the angst and how much Angels Investigations had wronged him. And, even though I did like his relationship with Lilah, in retrospect they were also pretty self-important in all their discussions on how Judas committed the worst sin of all in betrayal. It's funny that Buffy is the character that you hear more about her being whiny and self-important, yet a lot of the time Ats had nothing but excess man pain with Angel and Wesley over the ~burdens~ that they carried

he came across as pretty surly and self-indulgent in how he would wallow in the angst and how much Angels Investigations had wronged him

Yeah. For me it's just a question of what did he expect was going to happen? They were gonna thank him? Yeah, he thought he was doing the right thing, but I can't see how anyone would see the result being different even if it went as planned. If he'd have owned it instead of the 'i got my throat cut and my friends abandoned me!' stuff I'd have felt more for him. Also I cringe at his whole chivalry act in S4 regarding Lilah.

It's funny that Buffy is the character that you hear more about her being whiny and self-important, yet a lot of the time Ats had nothing but excess man pain with Angel and Wesley over the ~burdens~ that they carried

"Whiny" Buffy is always something I side-eye, tbh. I just...don't see it? Self-important, sure. That's part and parcel of being a proactive hero. It takes self-importance to say people need saving and I'm gonna do it. As far as whiny people in BTVS/AtS goes, she's not very high on the list, IMO.

I don't either, if anything Buffy was usually the one telling other characters to suck it up! I don't even think that she complained about her powers all that much after high school (admittedly she did complain a fair bit in early season 2), yet some viewers seem to remember her treating her slayer powers as a burden nonstop?

And yes, Wesley seemed very stuck on being a chivalrous and old-fashioned gentleman, but most of the time I just wanted him to get over himself! Early on the show would make fun of how pompous and self-important he was, but by the time of dark Wesley I felt like we we were supposed to take the character as seriously as he took himself, and get really invested in his angsting and creepy worship of Fred

Edited 2015-02-09 20:21 (UTC)

Yeah. For me it's just a question of what did he expect was going to happen? They were gonna thank him? Yeah, he thought he was doing the right thing, but I can't see how anyone would see the result being different even if it went as planned.

Given AI's culture of bragging about how they help the helpless and they're here to save souls to the tune that Wesley had to forgive Faith for brutally torturing him for hours the day after and Wesley/Cordelia/Gunn forgave Angel for abandoning them and the mission for no good reason, I think Wesley expected some forgiveness or a willingness to hear his side of the story or to confirm that he was discharged from the hospital safely. Or for Angel to keep his bullshit phoney promises and NOT try to kill yet another human being just because he felt like it or if Angel did so, for the gang to react like normal human beings who come out against against OTT brutal vengeance against again, helpless, people in their hospital beds.

Moreover, AI managed to ask and accept favors from Wesley with zero grace or pout and refuse to ask for his help in a manner that can only be described as depraved indifference to human life. Like how, Gunn asked Wesley for his expertise to cure Fred, after again, Gunn showed that he gives zero fucks if Wesley lives or dies or if Angel tries to murder Wesley or heck, how Wesley copes with a very painful, tragic mistake. However, Gunn can't just ask for Wesley's expertise. He has to victim-speech about how he doesn't even want to be Wesley's apartment and how this is all beneath him. Or how AI was cool with leaving a tear to a hell dimension wide-open to harm people from Sluk-related threats on up before asking their ex-researcher for help. Or Gunn was more OK with leaving Angel and Cordelia in whatever peril all summer and letting their business go to pot without half the members before asking Wesley for his help. And then, Fred and Gunn can't just graciously accept Wesley's rescue of Angel. They have bitch about how Wesley wasn't giving them reports of the rescue mission even though Gunn and Fred were the ones who decided to cut Wesley out of their lives.

So, I really got why Wesley felt unfairly abandoned and treated like crap. I actually thought he was pretty restrained in his resentment. He had that one sole line to describe the whole team's really deplorable treatment of him.

Also I cringe at his whole chivalry act in S4 regarding Lilah.

What "act"? You mean, how he actually dove into W&H offices when he knew that the Beast was at large and murdering everyone there to rescue Lilah? Or how he hoped that she'd stop being evil and ordering murders and apocalypses and have some better future than eternity of hell?

Man, what a jerk...

Or for Angel to keep his bullshit phoney promises and NOT try to kill yet another human being just because he felt like it or if Angel did so, for the gang to react like normal human beings who come out against against OTT brutal vengeance against again, helpless, people in their hospital beds.

Where are the lies tbh.

:-)

Barring Faith, all of which happened *after* he did it. So what was he expecting the outcome of stealing someone's kid going to be going in? Had he expected a sympathetic or even neutral ear, he'd have told Gunn or Fred.

The weird part is, he doesn't even seem to hold Angel accountable for what he did, which is something I wouldn't have minded because of Angel's sanctimonious saving people or redemption crap.

What "act"? You mean, how he actually dove into W&H offices when he knew that the Beast was at large and murdering everyone there to rescue Lilah? Or how he hoped that she'd stop being evil and ordering murders and apocalypses and have some better future than eternity of hell?

Yes, actually, considering how little mentions her before, during or after.

Barring Faith, all of which happened *after* he did it.

Huh? Based on the Faith incident and the Angel/Darla shennanigans in S2, how AI preached that they help the helpless, how AI preached that they save souls, how Wesley always had the team's back and Wesley considered the team like a family to him, Wesley reasonably expected that the team would be kinder to him than they were or at least, first and foremost concerned with justice and protecting the world instead of punishing and insulting him. He really didn't expect all of that crap that I listed above.

Yes, Wesley didn't want to draft Gunn and Fred into his mission to walk to Holtz's lair, ready to be murdered to defend Angel, or to walk away from his home and job and everything that he loved to raise Connor elsewhere in peace. He didn't want to make Gunn and Fred be complicit in what he knew was a betrayal and sin to take a child. However the fact that Wesley didn't want to draft his friends into a crappy mission and wanted to shoulder it alone, doesn't negate how Wesley held on hope as he was bleeding away that his friends would be forgiving enough and care about him enough to, at least, hear his side of the story.

I agree that it's weird that Wesley doesn't hold a big grudge against for the attempted murder. However, that just feeds directly into my point. Rather than acting like the world owes him a favor, Wesley has utter heroic forbearance and love for his crappy "friends". Wesley could justifiably not lift a finger to help Angel and Cordelia when they disappeared over the summer...but he did. Wesley could have contemptuously called Angel his attempted murderer and most of AI "fans of attempted murder". He could have pitched a fit when Fred and Gunn yelled at him for not giving them prompt updates on his "Save Angel" plan. And on and on. However, Wesley didn't do any of that.

Yes, actually, considering how little mentions her before, during or after.

I don't understand your point. Wesley's first face-to-face conversation with Lilah was about two weeks before they slept together when she started to recruit him to W&H. Lilah was a very important part of Wesley's life in S4. At the end of S4, Wesley learned that he can't rescue Lilah from hell because her hellish flames will continue burning because they'll never consume anything. Moreover, Wesley learned that Lilah accepts her fate.

Then, I don't get what Wesley is supposed to do. Lilah is dead, she's in hell. Lilah accepts it, Wesley can't change it since W&H owns her soul and has it all rigged. As described before, Wesley's "friends" (and I use sarcastic quote marks) don't really care to help him mourn Lilah. Actually, Angel did recognize that Wesley was in a lot of pain since Lilah died and offered a little sympathy. Fred was jealous and pissy and got upset when Wesley started mourning aloud. Gunn doesn't care about Wesley's feelings. It's not like Wesley has anyone to discuss Lilah with. Again, he can only quietly move on.

He really didn't expect all of that crap that I listed above.

Then why didn't he tell them? You claim it's because he didn't want to involve them, but if he really believed they'd back him or understand, then why would they be affronted at being involved with this great betrayal and sin? Because he knew exactly how they'd react. He wasn't an idiot. He knew he was betraying all of them and the unfortunate effect of betrayal is people are left feeling betrayed.

I mean, I agree with you that they were shitty friends. From his side, the whole thing played like he knew what he was getting into even if it didn't go pear-shaped. He knows Angel and knows he's a hypocrite when it comes to redemption. Fred and Gunn, you summed them up yourself. It's like he kicked a bees nest and complained about getting stung. It's a self-imposed angst-fest.

And it continues with Lilah. Did he feel for her? Sure, but it's only suggested so far as it provokes his gallantry. His freeing her from W&H, subsequently saving her from potential vamping and then attempting to free her from W&H. All great things, but are a testament to his loss and pain. Big overtures, not much in the way of show. And no, none of his friends gave a damn (I found Angel's 'comfort' condescending, honestly), but there other ways it could have been shown. Maybe the writers just didn't care enough to show it, but we can only go by what's onscreen.

Like I said, to me they just turned him into Angel and he always seems smarter and had longer vision than that before the Connor incident.

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/I think Wesley expected some forgiveness or a willingness to hear his side of the story/ - Yes, what sting the most is that *Cordelia* did not even bother to talk to Wes to hear his side of the story after coming back from her trip... (But then the characterization of later seasons!Cordelia is notoriously absurd.)

Edited 2015-02-10 23:45 (UTC)

But what's so fascinating about Wes is that his earlier self is just another facet of what he'll later become. He was always a supporter of the idea that the ends justify the means and that the mission takes precedence over the well-being of single individuals, which goes way back since the whole thing in BtVS with Willow and the Major and the box.

Edited 2015-02-11 00:04 (UTC)

I agree with this so much. (Well, except that I didn't like Illyria, either. Sorry!!!!)

Gabrielle

I really loved Illyria, but maybe that's because she was only around for a brief time lol. The writing for most of the Ats characters was all over the place a lot of the time, and that's why in retrospect I'm not such a big fan of that show as I was at the time, it wasn't aged well for me

Wow, we disagree on a lot. I agree that Cordelia was ruined before AtS S4, but then I was tired of her by mid-AtS S2. I also think Angel is interesting but such a jerk.

However, we disagree on pretty all else in particularly how Wesley is my guy and I really like Fred.

I never fell in love with any of the main cast of Angel, so it never became my show in the way that Buffy did tbh. I got into it more on my first watch as there were some great episodes and arcs, it's more now looking back that I feel like it's not a show that I want to rewatch as much as some others, mostly because the characters left me kind of hollow most of the time. I think that I liked the villains more on Ats actually lol (Faith, Dru, Darla, Lilah, Lindsey, Holland, and Illyria all kicked ass on that show)

And yeah Wesley was such a fan favourite at the time, so I always knew that I had the unpopular opinion in not really feeling it, but something about his character during that going dark arc always left me cold, even though intellectually I could appreciate that he was trying to do the right thing

glad to know I'm not the only one who didn't emotionally connect to dark Wesley.
I used to like the guy, but then he turned into broodboy junior and I lost pretty much most of my interest in the character.

I think that was a lot of what turned me off, maybe I'm only drawn to the bad boy if he's fun and snarky lol, Wesley came across as really dour to me and wrapped up in his ~inner pain~

I much preferred when Fred turned into Illyria, she become one of my favourite Ats characters ever

Same! Illyria is awesome. Fred is meh.

Yeah, Fred was okay, but i always felt like she was a creation that the male writers were more into than many of the audience. She was just soo adorable, look at how much popcorn she can fit into her mouth, all while remaining a dainty size 2!

Yes, we're in agreement regarding Cordelia. Actually, I think the writers went off the rails with her character even as early as season 2, where her arc is pretty much stagnant (BTW, I did read some interesting meta about the Cordy situation...)
/Illyria, she become one of my favourite Ats characters ever/ - Because llyria is just so awesome! *_* Though we have to agree to disagree regarding Wesley... ;)

Well it seems that I definitely got it right on my apathy for Wesley being an unpopular opinion anyway! :P

And hmm yeah, I'd agree with that. I remember that Cordelia was pretty awesome in early season 2 with how much she had grown, while still remaining her snarky self. But it always felt like they didn't really know where to take her after that, and then she became really perfect and bland after they landed on making her a love interest for Angel.

Thanks for those links, I'm going to check them out now :)

Sure, no problem! ;)