frelling_tralk | (no subject)

Barring Faith, all of which happened *after* he did it. So what was he expecting the outcome of stealing someone's kid going to be going in? Had he expected a sympathetic or even neutral ear, he'd have told Gunn or Fred.

The weird part is, he doesn't even seem to hold Angel accountable for what he did, which is something I wouldn't have minded because of Angel's sanctimonious saving people or redemption crap.

What "act"? You mean, how he actually dove into W&H offices when he knew that the Beast was at large and murdering everyone there to rescue Lilah? Or how he hoped that she'd stop being evil and ordering murders and apocalypses and have some better future than eternity of hell?

Yes, actually, considering how little mentions her before, during or after.

:-)

I hated Dark Willow. The fact that there *is* Dark Willow renders the whole thing dumb. I hated the resolution to both Buffy and Willow's arcs in S6, honestly.

And yes, about The Body. I liked the Buffy, Dawn and even Giles stuff. The others...just too over the top for me because, yeah. When do the Scoobies and Joyce ever really converse? Also while Emma does a good job with her part, I felt it was completely out of place for Anya. Her not understanding death after having wielded as a weapon for a thousand years just didn't fit. Like you said, it felt like she, Xander and Willow were just acting out parts instead of playing their characters.

Barring Faith, all of which happened *after* he did it.

Huh? Based on the Faith incident and the Angel/Darla shennanigans in S2, how AI preached that they help the helpless, how AI preached that they save souls, how Wesley always had the team's back and Wesley considered the team like a family to him, Wesley reasonably expected that the team would be kinder to him than they were or at least, first and foremost concerned with justice and protecting the world instead of punishing and insulting him. He really didn't expect all of that crap that I listed above.

Yes, Wesley didn't want to draft Gunn and Fred into his mission to walk to Holtz's lair, ready to be murdered to defend Angel, or to walk away from his home and job and everything that he loved to raise Connor elsewhere in peace. He didn't want to make Gunn and Fred be complicit in what he knew was a betrayal and sin to take a child. However the fact that Wesley didn't want to draft his friends into a crappy mission and wanted to shoulder it alone, doesn't negate how Wesley held on hope as he was bleeding away that his friends would be forgiving enough and care about him enough to, at least, hear his side of the story.

I agree that it's weird that Wesley doesn't hold a big grudge against for the attempted murder. However, that just feeds directly into my point. Rather than acting like the world owes him a favor, Wesley has utter heroic forbearance and love for his crappy "friends". Wesley could justifiably not lift a finger to help Angel and Cordelia when they disappeared over the summer...but he did. Wesley could have contemptuously called Angel his attempted murderer and most of AI "fans of attempted murder". He could have pitched a fit when Fred and Gunn yelled at him for not giving them prompt updates on his "Save Angel" plan. And on and on. However, Wesley didn't do any of that.

Yes, actually, considering how little mentions her before, during or after.

I don't understand your point. Wesley's first face-to-face conversation with Lilah was about two weeks before they slept together when she started to recruit him to W&H. Lilah was a very important part of Wesley's life in S4. At the end of S4, Wesley learned that he can't rescue Lilah from hell because her hellish flames will continue burning because they'll never consume anything. Moreover, Wesley learned that Lilah accepts her fate.

Then, I don't get what Wesley is supposed to do. Lilah is dead, she's in hell. Lilah accepts it, Wesley can't change it since W&H owns her soul and has it all rigged. As described before, Wesley's "friends" (and I use sarcastic quote marks) don't really care to help him mourn Lilah. Actually, Angel did recognize that Wesley was in a lot of pain since Lilah died and offered a little sympathy. Fred was jealous and pissy and got upset when Wesley started mourning aloud. Gunn doesn't care about Wesley's feelings. It's not like Wesley has anyone to discuss Lilah with. Again, he can only quietly move on.

Yeah same, I didn't buy that Buffy would get over her depression so easily, nor did I appreciate her getting sidelined so much in the finale. The first half of season 6 is very strong to me, but it felt like they didn't know how to resolve what they had set up, that entire two-parter hit too cheesy a note with how easily they resolved everything

And yep, I could understand the scoobies being sad for Buffy (as Tara was) and feeling shocked at coming face to face with mortality for the first time with their friends mother dying, but punching the wall? Ending up in tears? The flashback felt like a very contrived way of suddenly telling is that Joyce had been a mother figure to the gang, even though that blatantly didn't line up with the rest of the series

No one asked for SPN yet? Supernatural!

1. Castiel worked really well in season 4, but they never needed to make him a regular, he would have been much more powerful if his appearances had remained at reoccurring

2. I really liked Bela and wished that we got more backstory on the deal that she made, and that we saw her again after Hell. Also she and Dean would have made a super hot couple!

3. Bobby is okay, but I find him overrated. His death episode was very well done, but I never considered him to be an essential part of the shows success, and I got kind of tired of his 'balls' and 'idjits' catchphrases.

4. I was disappointed in the execution of season 5. I know they didn't have a high budget, but I was really expecting more than the poor pacing and filler episodes that we did get. It had its high points, but overall it was a disappointing follow-up to the season 4 cliffhanger to me. All that build-up to the breaking of the seals meaning that Lucifer would create hell on earth, and then the world was basically the same?! I never cared much for the portrayal of Lucifer either, I liked the version that Sam played in The End more

5. Season 7 flopped pretty hard by the end, but I think that the first half of that season is underrated, there were a lot of strong episodes

Edited 2015-02-10 05:41 (UTC)

Darn, SPN is taken, so (judging by your username) I'll suggest Farscape.

1. Zhann was really superior and grating, I could never warm to her character

2. I loved Sikozu, she was one of my favourite characters and I was disappointed in how the miniseries ended her story

3. I appreciated the note of tragedy that the miniseries ended D'Argo and Chiana's love story on, but they didn't really work for me as a couple overall, I found D'Argo quite Misognostic and unpleasant in relationships

4. Jeremiah Crichton wasn't THAT bad. Yeah it was pretty bad, but it was funny bad! I wouldn't call it the worst Farscape episode of all, I've sat through way more boring episodes than that one for starters

5. Coup By Clam was hilarious and one of the best season 4 episodes

Yes, yes, yes for #4. JC was certainly not the worse ep in Farscape. Have you listened to the commentary for that ep?? It's hilarious.

Can't agree about #5, though. CbC is right down near the bottom of my list.

Lol yeah I haven't found anyone else who liked Coup By Clam yet, but i thought that it was great!

And I have, I love how the commentary is labelled as 'When bad things happen to good tv shows' XD But yeah, the parts with Rygel on his throne weren't so bad, I would take it any day over some of the boring D'Argo episodes that I sat through

He really didn't expect all of that crap that I listed above.

Then why didn't he tell them? You claim it's because he didn't want to involve them, but if he really believed they'd back him or understand, then why would they be affronted at being involved with this great betrayal and sin? Because he knew exactly how they'd react. He wasn't an idiot. He knew he was betraying all of them and the unfortunate effect of betrayal is people are left feeling betrayed.

I mean, I agree with you that they were shitty friends. From his side, the whole thing played like he knew what he was getting into even if it didn't go pear-shaped. He knows Angel and knows he's a hypocrite when it comes to redemption. Fred and Gunn, you summed them up yourself. It's like he kicked a bees nest and complained about getting stung. It's a self-imposed angst-fest.

And it continues with Lilah. Did he feel for her? Sure, but it's only suggested so far as it provokes his gallantry. His freeing her from W&H, subsequently saving her from potential vamping and then attempting to free her from W&H. All great things, but are a testament to his loss and pain. Big overtures, not much in the way of show. And no, none of his friends gave a damn (I found Angel's 'comfort' condescending, honestly), but there other ways it could have been shown. Maybe the writers just didn't care enough to show it, but we can only go by what's onscreen.

Like I said, to me they just turned him into Angel and he always seems smarter and had longer vision than that before the Connor incident.

I sometimes wonder if they just chickened out. Ratings were falling, everyone was complaining about the dark, depressive storyline and they just threw in a half-assed happy ending. Buffy's happy, Xander saves the day and Willow's Willow again. Nothing will ever redeem the crayon business. Nothing.

Same thing in S7. Out of nowhere in EoD we're supposed to forget everything that happened.

Then why didn't he tell them? You claim it's because he didn't want to involve them, but if he really believed they'd back him or understand, then why would they be affronted at being involved with this great betrayal and sin? Because he knew exactly how they'd react. He wasn't an idiot. He knew he was betraying all of them and the unfortunate effect of betrayal is people are left feeling betrayed.

Yes, Wesley could not want to involve his friends in his perceived obligation to move away from everything he's ever loved to protect Connor but still expect some compassion and effort to understand him when it went pear-shaped. That's completely understandable human nature. I don't think that your typical person is totally honest and walks through life expecting that if he ever lies (even with the best of the intentions) or make a mistake, he'll rationally expect that his friends/chosen family will all violently turn on him, condone any murder attempt made on him, abandon him in the middle of a serious injury, and spit on him whenever he tries to help and endanger themselves and the world to continue to isolate him. Most people that I know do lie or make mistakes, for reasons a lot more ignoble than Wesley's, but still expect some measure of compassion and efforts at justice from their best friends.

To analogize, it's like how Buffy hid Angel's re-appearance from hell, even when Buffy thought it was possible that Feral Angel was murdering students. And Buffy went around outting Willow and Giles to her guidance counselor and saying that she was justified in hiding Angel's whereabouts because goodness knows what terrible things they'd do to Angel. (Fuggetabout Xander.) However when news broke that she'd been hiding Angel, Buffy did expect her friends' compassion and high opinion of her to make them believe her that Angel was cured and to stand down and forgive her and Angel both. And when she didn't get that from Xander.....for a few hours, Buffy was pissed.

Or how Buffy ran away on the sly on her own and never phoned home and wrote where she was and abandoned her post, but she still expected her friends to be there for her when she got home and she was shocked, SHOCKED that Willow didn't want to go shopping with for serious girl-bonding the next day and tried avoiding Buffy at the party.

And you know, Buffy justifiably received forgiveness and love from her friends (despite their initial anger) because they're friends and they should be compassionate to one another.

He knows Angel and knows he's a hypocrite when it comes to redemption. Fred and Gunn, you summed them up yourself. It's like he kicked a bees nest and complained about getting stung. It's a self-imposed angst-fest.

This was the first time that Angel was really tested. Would Angel act on the whole "Never give up on a soul, that's what I do here. Must forgive people for mistakes. The smallest act of kindness can mean the most" speech if someone actually really hurt *Angel*. Thus far, the Scoobies (absent Xander's sniping) and AI were pretty perfect friends to Angel who never hurt him but just lined up to help him and befriend him. This situation with Wesley (and Connor next season) were two big first tests to see if Angel's got the forbearance that he so earnestly preaches about.

BTW, AI didn't even think with one mind. Lorne wanted Angel and Co. to forgive Wesley and asked Angel to forgive him right in Forgiving. Fred felt an obligation to bring his office possessions to the hospital and to warn Wesley that Angel would kill him if he comes by the hotel and later, felt forgiving enough and committed enough to the world that she wanted the gang to swallow their pride and use Wesley's expertise to protect others. AI didn't think with one mind. Some felt that their treatment of Wesley was wrong- but all felt beholden to Angel's anger and grudge.

And it continues with Lilah. Did he feel for her? Sure, but it's only suggested so far as it provokes his gallantry. His freeing her from W&H, subsequently saving her from potential vamping and then attempting to free her from W&H. All great things, but are a testament to his loss and pain. Big overtures, not much in the way of show.

Wesley risking his life twice to save Lilah aren't merely overtures with little "show". Risking your life to save someone is *show* in the sense as a demonstrable, non-phony gesture of love.

I don't even get what's got you bothered about Wesley/Lilah. He was devastated when she died. He risked his life to save her. He convinced AI to give her sanctuary in the hotel when she was injured and on the run from the Beast- and then he felt guilt when she soon died in the hotel at (he first thought Angelus) Faux-delia's hand. He briefly entertained happy thoughts that they were in a relationship- until she betrayed him to hurt Lorne and spy on AI to further her company's apocalyptic goals. I'm not sure what else you want. Do you only recognize romantic gestures if they occur over champagne and candles? I mean, I'd like more Wes/Lilah because it's AtS's best ship by a country mile but I didn't think there was anything notably inferior in the writing for Wesley in the relationship.

I'm absolutely in agreement with all of your comments. Does that make them not quite so unpopular? ;)

I liked D'Argo as a standalone character, but in a ship, or being the focus of an ep? No way. And I love Coup By Clam. What's not to like. ;)

Edited 2015-02-10 15:09 (UTC)

I was really surprised at how universally hared it was, I thought that it was hilarious. It had some good character moments too, like Aeryn and Sikozu started to bond after they got captured and Sikozu offers up her fingers instead as they can be reattached, or Rygel's sadistic torture of the Doctor *g*

And heh yes, I only like D'Argo in buddy scenes with John mostly (how cute were they in Lava's A Many Spendered Thing when John was lying to D'Argo about being able to make a jump, or D'Argo was pretend to understand John's science talk!), but Mental As Anything shone quite a disturbing look at his past relationship when we found out that he had beaten his wife after all, and I never much liked how possessive he would get of Chiana

Sikozu! So much love! ♥♥

How about Torchwood? ;)

Yesss, I'm total agreement of point 4. (Luckily there's fic...) Point 1 too, but then again I think all things kind of went off the rails after season 5...

It seems like season 5 is mostly a pretty popular season, but yeah I was disappointed in the number of comedy filler episodes in the first half of that season. I guess that they never had the budget for it but, after all the build-up in season 4, I was anticipating an actual post-apocalyptic season along the lines of The End episode. I was a bit bemused when the world basically remained the same, and they were going to hotels for a SPN convention...

I loved her so much from her very first episode, she was definitely up there with my all time facourite Farscape characters, she and Scorpios made such a badass couple as well!

Yes, we're in agreement regarding Cordelia. Actually, I think the writers went off the rails with her character even as early as season 2, where her arc is pretty much stagnant (BTW, I did read some interesting meta about the Cordy situation...)
/Illyria, she become one of my favourite Ats characters ever/ - Because llyria is just so awesome! *_* Though we have to agree to disagree regarding Wesley... ;)

Yes, Scorpius/Sikozu made such a surprisingly great couple.. ,)

1. One opinion that I guess is unpopular is that I never really cared about Owen much. I know that no one was that keen on him at first, but by the end of series 2 it seems like he had grown on a lot of people and they were mourning his death, but I just never warmed to him

2. In retrospect the Janto relationship was more fanon than canon. The show did make them more intense in Children Of Earth, but for most of series 1 and 2 they happened off-screen and I felt like the writers cared way more about getting the audience invested in Jack and Gwen. I believe that Ianto had deep feelings for Jack, but I'm not sure if Jack was ever in romantic love with him in the same way

3. I think that Children Of Earth is a little bit overhyped, it seemed like it became the popular viewpoint to treat COE as the time when TW got serious and dismiss the earlier show completely as complete crack? Don't get me wrong, COE was very powerful drama, but no less so than episodes like Fracture or Sleeper were from series 2 IMO, but it just seemed like people forgot all that after COE and remember the entire series as being nothing but jokes about blowfish driving a sports car?

And I have more opinions, but I don't think that they go against popular fandom opinion, so I'll have to leave it at three XD

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