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So I've been seeing this video several times on my flist and I'm trying to work out my thoughts on it

The video in question

I haven't had all that much exposure to Supernatural cons, so I'm wondering if there's some context that I'm missing, but I actually felt like it was a real overreaction the way that everyone tried to shut that fan down

This post has the person who asked the question explaining what happened This is the full question that she wanted to ask:

I’ve loved seeing Dean’s character become more comfortable with himself this season. As a bisexual, I’ve noticed some possible subtext, as seen in Everybody Hates Hitler, that Dean might be coming to accept himself as something other than straight too? I know you’ve said you know Dean better than anyone, so, in your professional opinion, as the preeminent scholar on Dean Winchester, if you see that as a valid interpretation of what’s going on with the character this season.

She then notes that Now here is what happened when I attempted to ask this question. I got as far as the word “bisexual” before the crowd groaned. I proceeded to hold my hand up in a ‘please just wait a second and let me finish’ way and then got as far as the word subtext before the crowd was full on booing and starting to shout a couple things I couldn’t make out. This is when Clif stepped out from behind the curtain looking very intimidating. He said, “Are you really going to ask this question?”

The video also shows Jensen saying "really that's the first question" and jokingly saying don't ruin it for everyone (which did seem to be aimed at her, but I'll take her word for it that she felt it was addressed more at the crowd booing her), and finally says that he's going to pretend that he didn't hear the question and let's move on. And supposedly shipping questions were then banned from the con? But the thing is that she wasn't asking a shipping question at all that I could see, and there are several scenes in canon that can be read as Dean being bixsexual. I don't see it as completely invalid fanwank to ask the actors or the writers about it when the writers are putting those scenes in there. I certainly don't think that anyone deserves to be booed for simply asking the question, nor was there any need for fans to get that defensive over someone perceived as making the actors uncomfortable.

I'm kind of torn because I do hate when fans constantly harp on Destial or Wincest to the actors and look to them to validate their ship, just yikes. But this felt like the other extreme to me with an oddly hostile response from the crowd before she had even finished speaking. I don't know if it's just because a lot of the audience are used to those questions from other cons and have a kneejerk response to them by now, or if they thought she was oversharing or what? I think I might be missing some context with what supposedly happened at Misha's panel earlier as well. But still there's a big difference between asking an actor to sign a fan manip or drawing of something REALLY inappropiate (if you know what I mean...), and an audience of fans having complete second-hand embarassment at someone merely asking "poor Jensen" if the character he plays could be bisexual.

And is a question like that really so inappropriate for a show that all the time teases the audience with quotes like "Cas, last time someone looked at me like that I got laid" and "get out of my ass". It almost seems like it's fine for the writers to joke around with it in a frat-boy kind of a way, but god forbid the audience take any of hints of bisexuality or homosexuality as anything more than something hysterically funny to play around with

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I don't really understand con etiquette, so there's a lot of context I'm sure I'm missing. But I just feel like the actors and a handful of individual writers end up getting taken to task for the whole universe of fandom feelings about XYZ. And that's such a massive thing that can be tough for me to understand even with written access to all the context, that I kind of can't blame the individuals involved for setting and enforcing whatever boundaries.

But at the same time, when NO HOMO! is the boundary, whether it's based in someone's individual issue or because there's a critical mass of attendees who make it an overwhelming thing to try to talk about, in context of the way SPN-the-narrative has some weird masculinity issues, is...hinky. I'll commit to hinky.

Edited 2013-05-06 17:39 (UTC)

in context of the way SPN-the-narrative has some weird masculinity issues, is...hinky.

It makes me very uncomfortable for the show to happily play around with subtext and wink at the audience, and then when a real bisexual fan with real feelings wants to talk about it, for the actors and fans to basically respond along the lines of "wow, did she really just go there". The audience responded terribly of course, but I wish too that the actors could have handled it differently then they did. It wouldn't have been a big deal for Jensen to say let her finish the question and to then seriously answer it, instead of backing up the general atmosphere by acting like she was asking the wrong question and let's all just move on and pretend we didn't understand what she was asking. There was something about it all that felt very shaming, especially after the fan had just told the room that she was bisexual, to then get the response she did really sits uneasily with me :/

I kind of can't blame the individuals involved for setting and enforcing whatever boundaries.

But yeah I am torn because I can understand the actors not wanting fans to push too many boundries with them and bring the fandom into it too much, so I am thinking that maybe if that was the first time Jensen had been asked a question along those lines then he would hopefully have answered it fairly, even if just by brushing aside the subtext or whatever. But because there had been inappropriate questions in the past and they are con veterans, then maybe that all played into them being on the alert and "great, I know where this is going" when they heard the word subtext

Edited 2013-05-06 18:02 (UTC)

In the link above at a con in London a fan asks Rekha Sharma if Baltar (James Callis) was a good kisser and if he used tongue.

Seriously. The fan asked that question. Can you imagine the SPN boys being asked that? But . . . I wonder if they would have reacted the same way if that was asked about a woman on the show they'd kissed or had some UST with? It's an invasive question but I wonder if they would have been as uncomfortable. Probably.

But this fan's intended question was not even that invasive. She was really curious. I think the audience thought it was going to a place that . . . it actually maybe wasn't going. We'll never know for sure since she didn't finish.

Sometimes there is homosexual subtext on a show. Sometimes there is incestuous subtext. (The Borgias I'm looking right at you.) I think it's fair for fans to ask about it politely, but I think it is going to be uncomfortable. Fans, con runners, actors, just need to deal with it.

Heh when I followed the link I was half-expecting the question to be about the subtext between Gaius and Gaeta, and thinking that's not really awkward to ask when it's something that can be discussed in terms of the show surely, but yeah that's just :shudders: Some fans are so creepy

But this fan's intended question was not even that invasive. She was really curious. I think the audience thought it was going to a place that . . . it actually maybe wasn't going.

I get the feeling that a lot of the audience were assuming that it was leading to a question on subtext with the Destiel ship maybe, and that's something Jensen hasn't really wanted to talk about in the past other than to say that he doesn't see it, so that might explain why fans were as hostile as they were. (With another of the actors Misha he's all for questions like that, so there wouldn't have been the same response if he had got asked that question.) That might explain the atmosphere somewhat because the audience thought that another fan was making things uncomfortable for Jensen to bring up slash subtext again, even though she did have a legit question if they had let her finish

I was already involved in LJ fandom at the time (have been since 2007) and it was a theme there too, how those interviews had us worried and then... Nothing of the sort happened in canon? But I agree about the projecting, that might've been part of the issue, along with some, sorry to say, pretty shitty misogyny.

Yep. I ship it like fed-ex, but... Canon? What shit are you smoking? Plus, I can see Misha agreeing to playing it, but Jensen? LOL NO. Hell. Freezing. All that. Nope.

Well, apparently this came on the heels of a disastrous Misha panel where, allegedly, the same girl asked a shipping question. I don't know it was the same girl, but Misha has admitted that he feels sexually harassed by some fans. So, when you put together that, along with the ban on questions related to shipping, it's not surprising that fans or the actors might react negatively. Furthermore, why, why when you are aware of this would you kick off the first question of a panel with I am bisexual and follow with subtext of the show when you know the actors are tired of that line of questioning?

Edited 2013-05-06 19:07 (UTC)

It did end up being about the Gaius/Gaeta subtext but not because of the fan. ;-) You have to watch. It's hilarious. ;-)

I read somewhere on the link on Tumblr that someone from the con started to talk to the fan about her question and that's probably why she didn't finish. That's not cool. Let her finish and then comment, is what I say. But it's also about her too. Don't let boos stop you if you're going into territory you know is controversial. Gotta stand your ground! If this fan at a nice British con can ask about tongue, I'm thinking most everything is fair game. ;-)

The point is, she has a right to ask about Misha if she wants to. There are so many new fans everyday asking the same stuff all the time. They should be grateful for new fans after ten years on TV. It's like having a guest and they bring you a hideous gift. Smile and say thank you. That's just politeness. And if you never open it, you never know what it might be.

I was curious about what happened at Misha's panel earlier, I've seen a lot of references to something going down there, but I'm not sure what exactly? That would make more sense of the audience seeming to be on the alert as soon as she started to ask the question

She does say in the link that Cliff (the bodyguard of Jensen and Jarad) told her not to ask that question and just thank them and go, so I can understand stopping when she did as I think it was more about Cliff approaching her than it was the boo's stopping her from finishing. But then it made it more awkward to cut her off at 'I've seen some possible subtext', instead of letting her get to the gist of her question for Jensen.

Interesting that she said her question got through the screening process, yet that was obviously a question that the actors were not okay with being asked

Yeah, if a body guard came up to me that would be pretty intimidating. And she was crying later. I don't think her question was going to injure anyone, seriously, whatever she was going to ask.

I think they need to man up. It's a question, deal with it gracefully, and move on. She's not the first to see subtext and won't be the last. There is subtext, duh. I heard similar questions for Gaius and Felix all the time. (I haven't gone to cons but I watch all the vids on YouTube. :-)) James Callis didn't like it in the beginning. I think he didn't want to be typecast after his earlier role in the first Bridget Diary film. But eventually, the actors just answered the question and moved on.

I think screening is a good idea, but once screened let the question happen.

Here's a link to one attendee's review although a video would give more accurate account.

http://iamsupernaturalsbitch.tumblr.com/post/49639765274/misha-panel-more-first-of-all-he-came-out

Thanks for the link :) Honestly I think I'm still missing some context though because I don't see why asking if Castiel is in love with Dean would be all that awkward, it seemed like Misha was very hesitant to be asked that question because he came in for a lot of hate after his last panel and was accused of being against gay rights? So yeah I'm not sure what happened there exactly, but in itself I don't think it's that big a deal to ask a question like that. If anything I think it would be way more awkward to ask about something like Wincest which, although I ship it, is really out there to bring up to the actors. But with Castiel he clearly has a 'profound bond' with Dean so, although I don't personally ship Destial, I can't argue that it's not a valid reading to see some subtext there which means those kinds of questions might come up. Again though it seemed like no one in the room wanted to hear it, so I'm guessing that there's a lot of con history there that I'm not aware of

Edited 2013-05-06 20:24 (UTC)

I think fandom is reactive when it comes to shipping questions these days because it may reflect poorly on the fandom at large. Shipping questions are directed at the cast and crew all the time through interviews, cons, twitter, personal interactions and what have you. I imagine it gets tedious. Also, for stuff like Wincest and Destiel where is no actual canonic development, the general feeling seems to be that fanon and canon should stay separate. In other words, don't continue to bring up fanon isssues with the cast and crew, especially when they have already made it clear that they would rather not answer such questions. Lastly, I want to point out that no one in the audience was booing the fact that the girl said she was bisexual. No, the collective groan was because they thought it was leading to territory most people would rather stay clear off. Did they overreact? May be, but we will never know. Was it out of line? I don't think so. I think people are just tired you know?

That makes sense, I've always been one of the people that suffers second-hand embarrassment myself when fandom gets brought up to the actors and wished that people wouldn't do it. It was just the collective unease that greeted the question that puzzled me, when all she seemed to be about to ask was subtext with Dean which, although not a question that I would ever ask, doesn't really fall into the realm of embarrassing shipping question for me either. But the way the response seemed to be wow let's movie in as quickly as possible and pretend that we didn't understand the question really weirded me out and seemed to make things even more uncomfortable then if Jensen had just laughed off her question with a no , it came off as weirdly taboo which is odd for a show like SpN which does joke around with subtext all the time

Thanks for this--I wondered what had happened but my ridiculous embarrassment squick wouldn't let me look.

I wonder that folks seem to confuse the RL actors with the fanfic actors. I've always assumed (and I know it’s kind of stereotyping) with JA's background, that he was nowhere near shouting distance of liberal, with all shades of meaning in that word. I've always assumed both of them were politically conservative seeing what part of the States they're from. Certainly, more conservative than fans would wish.

I guess the fan wanted to ask the question that we've all wondered this season but it's probably not ever going to be a good idea to ask it in front of a bunch of gun-shy fangirls, or of people you don’t know. I've been in the audience when someone asks a question that brings a collective gasp from the crowd. The asker is either clueless or very brave....

For me the point of contention is how many times can you ask the same question, you know? I am speaking here in a general sense. How many times can you ask is Dean in love with Cas or is Cas in love with Dean, or do you think Dean is bisexual? What answer do you expect to get that everyone would believe?

Here's what happened (supposedly) from the girl's own words: http://themysterygirlfromnjcon.tumblr.com/post/49756443708/direct-from-the-mystery-girl

Somewhere in there she says and I quote :

The answer to this question didn’t really matter to me personally, I’m going to ship what I’m going to ship no matter what the canon sexuality of a character is. But I know it does matter to a lot of people and that is why I decided on asking this.

You know what that tells me? She asked a question the response to which she didn't care about to begin with. Also, it had nothing to do with her bisexuality - that was a ruse to make the question sound more sophisticated and socially conscious. It was ultimately about shipping, make no mistake. Nothing wrong with a shipping question either, except, as I pointed out earlier, how far can you push the same question at the same people?

At the risk of making assumptions I will say that I've heard that Jensen's dad is pretty conservative, although I've no idea how true that is, but yeah I've always assumed(rightly or wrongly) that Jensen is most likely a pretty conservative guy too when it comes to some things

Shipping questions can definitely be annoying if they've already been asked a thousand time I agree. I suppose that it was mostly Jensen saying that I didn't hear the question, or 'I'm going to pretend I didn't', that made it seem more a taboo subject to ask about then simply another frustrating question that they've heard a thousand times before. The whole atmosphere just seemed really awkward from everyone involved, and downright hostile from the crowd

Sure, and it doesn't lessen my enjoyment of the show, because I'm tuning in to watch Dean, not Jensen Ackles. If Jensen Ackles is horrified at the idea of bisexuality, I'm disappointed but not enough to fold my tents and skidaddle, because I firmly believe that *Dean* is not. ;)

I'm a creeper who reads Jensen/Jared fic as well as Wincest (sssh :P ) and it doesn't bother me there either lol

We can be creepers together. :D

*raises fist in creeper solidarity*

Heck, fanfic Jensen and Jared are playing roles we write for them--in the words of the Immortal Master Thespian--*acting*!

*G*

because I do hate when fans constantly harp on Destial or Wincest to the actors and look to them to validate their ship, just yikes. But this felt like the other extreme to me with an oddly hostile response from the crowd before she had even finished speaking.

I'm sure they get tired of ship questions. Then again, I'm sure they're tired of most questions by now. Lots of questions get repeated over and over and over... But yeah, ship questions that are seeking to somehow 'validate' a ship or a particular view of a character get old fast.

That said, it doesn't seem to be what this question was about. And I do find it horrible the way the crowd itself seemed to turn on the girl. It was a situation that spiraled out of control and was very confusing for everyone. Which of course then led to a bunch of 'JENSEN IS A BASTARD' posts on Tumblr because of all the hearsay going on about him shutting her down, and it doesn't seem to be what happened. If the crowd hadn't reacted the way it had, I doubt there would be any drama at all. In my reading of the situation, they were the catalyst.

It almost seems like it's fine for the writers to joke around with it in a frat-boy kind of a way, but god forbid the audience take any of hints of bisexuality or homosexuality as anything more than something hysterically funny to play around with

Also, this. So much.

I read some J&J once and I don't even watch the show. If that's creepy, I'm in.

It was damn good writing. Had to be to get me to read a multi-chapter RPF for people I don't even know.

Good writing is good writing.

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