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Regarding the outrage that this interview has caused

http://freemaagyeman.com/news/2007/12/15/russell-t-davies-series-4-finale/

Davies is a touch defensive when he explains that Martha was always going to be second best to Rose. 'That's how we played it, rather than fight it. It would have been an awful moment if the doctor had said. "Oh, you are like a new Rose to me."

I do not understand why people are freaking out from that interview so much. RTD meant it in terms of the next companion was inevitably to be second best in the Doctor's eyes, and umm yeah, I'm not sure what's controversial over simply stating that very true fact of what has already appeared on the show in series 3. The Doctor met Rose after the Time War, the two of them had bonded to an incredible extent, and were then seperated in Doomsday in a way that meant they would never meet again. It didn't matter how wonderful the next companion was, he was always going to have moments of wishing he were still with Rose

There seems to be such shock that Martha is not considered more worthy of the Doctor's respect, when she is a medical student, and Rose is "an uneducated peroxide blonde chav" who works in a shop. Umm he's a Time Lord and way above us anyway, intelligence is not the primary thing that drew the Doctor to humanity. (And his preferring Rose's company to Martha isn't all that new or scandalous, the Third Doctor enjoyed Jo's company, and mourned her loss more than he ever did the more intelligent Liz, right?)

DW fandom has too many snobs. Who cares if Rose has no GCSEs, that doesn't make her any less worthy of going on adventures with the Doctor, it's not like the majority of these adventures requires knowledge of advanced maths! In season 3 the Doctor described Rose as "so very human", so obviously Rose did have what appealed to him in a human to go on adventures with. People keep bringing up how Martha is smarter than Rose, and Rose is just a shop assistant with nothing exceptional about her at all in comparison, but that's missing the point that the Doctor doesn't choose companions based on brain power. If he did, he'd be picking up people who spend the day sat behind computers in offices with their many degrees. (Adam was a genuis, yet even he got dissed back in season 1, with the Doctor making the point that he only takes the best, and you're not it). We're all "stupid apes" in comparison to Time Lords, so that's obviously not what made humans his favourite species, or even what comes in most useful on the experiences that the Doctor takes you on. His main requirment seems to be for the companion to have a sense of wonder, and be ready to get out there and experience all kinds of life.

With Fear Her for example, the Doctor and Rose just clicked, and had a great time together. We see the Doctor missing that connection in The Shakespeares Code (not that his rudeness is excused there). The companion following Rose might have been more book smart, but the Doctor was connecting from the heart, not the brain. No matter how smart and generally awesome Martha was, she would never be Rose to him, and he was always going to miss that.

However, regardless of the Doctor's issues in series 3, Martha is going to be appearing in a spin-off, as well as continue in DW. All of this surely points to the fact that she is meant to be a kick-ass character in her own right, and that RTD does appreciate her. Martha's character didn't need the Doctor to fall in romantic love with her, especially when the audience all know the reason why that didn't happen, and it had nothing to do with Martha's flaws. I mean heck plenty of people did fall for Martha. The guy who snogged her in 42. Tom giving up his life to try and protect Martha. Even Shakespeare flirted with Martha. I personally find it much closer to sexism than anything from RTD when fandom takes the attitude that it doesn't matter whether or not Martha left the series kicking ass, all that really matters is that the Doctor didn't fall in love with her, and that therefore proves that she was never allowed to measure up to Rose. The Doctor falling in love was not needed in order to validate Martha as a companion. In fact, if it weren't for Martha's unrequited love that ultimately caused her to leave, I see no reason why both she and Jack couldn't have carried on travelling with the Doctor and having fun together. In her farewell speech, Martha admits that the Doctor likes her fine, but it's just too painful to have to keep on waiting and hoping, as she saw happen with a friend of hers. She didn't leave because the Doctor treated her poorly, but because she had fallen in romantic love, and it hurt too badly that he didn't feel the same way.

On another note, I don't get this argument that the Doctor treated Martha so terribly. Apparently he never said she was fantastic, he never said thank you for anything, all he did was compare her to Rose. Yet the only times the Doctor brings up Rose around Martha, were in Smith and Jones, and The Shakespeare Code. And an indirect reference in HN with John Smith's journal. Otherwise the people bringing up Rose were Martha, Jack, and the Master. (Gridlock reference was Martha asking if the Doctor had taken Rose there before). Probably the rudest the Doctor was to Martha was early on when he kept saying it would only be one trip, not a full-time companion. That was unappreciative granted. But even then he did go to the trouble of specially luring Martha into the Tardis after being impressed with her in S&J, and he admitted that she was never really just on there for one trip, he just couldn't bring himself to get attached again. For all the comparisons to how Donna was treated so much better in TRB, umm not really. The Doctor went to the trouble of asking them both on the Tardis, he made a bit of an effort to attract Martha in fact, and went back in time to show off. It was once Martha accepted his offer, that he quickly said that she wouldn't be replacing his previous companion, and I see no reason why he wouldn't have said the exact same thing to Donna if she had agreed to travel with him.

I mean how is any of this worth writing RTD protest letters? How is this worth embarrassing yourself by heading a post "Why must Rusty still be alive". People have made icons of their wish fullfillment of RTD's head exploding!!! I don't care if it is meant partly in fun, I think the hate this fandom have for a writer and human being is vile

It's enough to make SV fandom look quite sensible in fact o_0 And I thought I was being extremely angry when SV sunk my ship and I was all "So not buying the DVDs now". Apparently it's cool these days to wish personal harm on the writers as well, and slur their name by calling them a bigot. But if I was RTD, and saw people online discussing fantasies of my being set on fire, I certaintly wouldn't be very inclined to sympathize with their POV, or take much note of their complaints. It's just inviting any lurking members of the production team to see you as the lunatic fringe

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Ah come now - in fiction nothing "just happens that way sometimes."

Oh of course, I simply meant in terms of this perception in fandom that the Doctor treated Martha really poorly. Martha suffering from unrequited love is a stumbling block that exists in a friendship sometimes, but IMO it doesn't make the Doctor an ass because he didn't fall for her as overtly as he did Rose

And seeing the show as pushing eternal soulmates is a stretch surely? I saw it more as RTD wanting to play the reality of the Doctor adjusting to the loss of his first companion after the Time War. Really, the whole point of introducing a companion as awesome as Martha, was to make it even more obvious how the Doctor was struggling to get over his emo state of being. If they had deliberately introduced a rubbish companion to follow Rose, then that would have been missing the point of the arc RTD was planning on. Whether it was a good arc or down is down to viewers personal preference, but it certainly wasn't there to push "Martha as Sorry, Just Not Good Enough", nor do I understand what was so objectionable about it. I can understand that people might not have liked that arc, but Martha left on strong terms as a character, and she will be appearing in both DW and TW next year, so I don't think that she was used that badly by any means. Although I understand that YMMV there of course

Donna was kind of like Jackie actually. Kind of. And yes hee, I loved when Ten introduced Jackie as his companion in Army Of Ghosts, and she's just snarking on him constantly, and so unimpressed.

Having Donna around for series four should up the fun factor at any rate, the show needs less moping at this point

As a fan of the old Dr. Who shows from way back, I know better then to get too attached to any companion.

Heh that was something that I found interesting actually. Rose left in a really intense fashion, at the time supposedly for good, and people got told that get used to how DW works, and don't be mean to the new companion. And then some of these same people freak out when Martha is going to temp leave, even when we all know that she's coming back. Whenever Rose or Donna came up, there's almost always comments along the lines of how urgh terrible those actresses are, and we want Martha to come back, I want to kill the writers at the thought of Rose coming back. And yet "Rosefen" and "batchippers" are generally the only ones seen as somehow apart from the rest of fandom for their attachement to a character?

Eh idk, there seems to be a lot of double standards all round really in this fandom, and however places like f_w like to paint it, as if one side is really any less wanky than the other. I feel the most sorry for me, who just wants to get on with watching the show, and not be exposed to hate for any of the new series companions! :P

Edited 2007-12-16 21:49 (UTC)

So many people use class based insults to attack Rose (calling her a chav as well. She's lower-class, it's really not the same thing)

To be honest, I don't get what the chav jokes mean. I'm American, it goes way over my head. And I don't mean *you* you hon, I mean I see it a lot. People use weird derogatory stuff that they slam at each other over... ?? I don't get it. But I see it a lot - if you don't like Rose then you're some how against the common people, if you don't like Martha you're racist, if you don't like Sarah Jane then you're uninformed et cetera, et cetera...

I agree on being over ships in DW now.

It's like, I see their need to build a ship at every other versions expense (like Sarah Jane's friendship) and I think that is what is annoying people.

It happened again with the Doctor and Rose's giggling together at Mickey in the Cyberman opener *just smack*

Totally. Thought I think it was sometime around Boomtown where I connected WAY more with Mickey. I miss him.

Oh chav means Council Housed And Violent. Ten actually made a reference in School Reunion to "Happy-slappy hoodies with ASBOs and ringtones ..." which are both commonly associated with chav culture. But not everyone from a council estate is a chav by any means, and other than an unfortunate tendency to overdo it with the mascara, I've never seen anything particularly chav-like about Rose.

But I see it a lot - if you don't like Rose then you're some how against the common people, if you don't like Martha you're racist, if you don't like Sarah Jane then you're uninformed et cetera, et cetera...

Yeah, I think that's what discourages me the most with this fandom, the petty names that people come up with for another, and all of the personal attacks

Edited 2007-12-16 23:39 (UTC)

Nine or Five would never have pulled that crap. Probably not Three, either, while I am naming favorites. For different reasons, granted, but Ten is a bit harsh and abrasive at times, and there is definitely more of the alien disconnect, as you say.

Really, I thought his treatment of Rose in s2 was far worse than his indifference to Martha's infatuation.

I loved Martha's exit; she pwned everyone there. Rose's I have managed to wank into something sensical, because, ok, anyone abandoned in a parallel universe would probably get mopey and tear-streaked for a while, right? It's not like she pulled that forever. I do wish, like I said, rusty had toned down the pining when it comes to Martha, and as for Rose, GOD he needed to knock it off with the irrational jealousy. Why would she flip out over Sarah Jane like she did? That just irked me and again gave the impression that all women are here for is to compete over the menfolks.

I do believe that Ten treated Martha like shit, but I also think Ten treated Rose like shit - hell, I'll say I think Ten is second best to either of them - but that's just part of his character.

I was about to say that I've now seen about 10 episodes of Ten (five with Rose as companion and five with Martha) and he just seems like ... an equal-opportunity jackass to me. I mean, in Empire of the Wolf, Rose had to keep telling him not to be rude to people. Just in the handful of episodes I've seen of him, Ten comes across to me like he was raised by wolves.

I'm already squeeing over the TW spoiler pics

Oh, do you by chance have any links? My excitement about Martha coming to TW cannot be textually rendered.

WORD X A MILLION!!

Oh Who fandom, I hate so much about the things you choose to be.

I'm not even joking though, I think Who fandom is the craziest, most pretentious, and meanest of all the fandoms I've seen. Sure, Roswell fandom was full of ship wars and nuttiness but there was never meta about how evil GINGERS are. Dear lord.

I agree with so much of what you said in your post that I can't even choose what I agree with most. But if I had to choose it would be this conception that Martha is second best because the Doctor never had romantic feelings for her. Because, God knows, that's the only way you judge a lady?

Martha had a lot going for her. She was cool and smart and wore weird hairstyles and had a leather jacket. (I feel these last two are very important :P) She did not need the Ten's validation to make her "the best". o_O Seriously, fandom? Seriously?

You can't have feelings for everyone (although apparently the Doctor is supposed to?) and he just didn't see Martha that way. He liked her a great deal and, despite the overall opinion of fandom, WAS fairly nice to her. Nine was never always nice to Rose either. In fact the Doctor was short with Rose on several occasions, but I guess that's ok in the eyes of fandom because she was just a stupid shopgirl? GAH!

I really hate this fandom. Saying you didn't *love* Martha, and that you're a fan of Rose and D/R is basically the equivalent of saying "I'm crazy! Disregard my opinion!" in this fandom. o_O

I wonder how much hate is gonna come Donna's way? For all the complaining that the fandom did about how Rose fans should "get over it" when she left , they're sure complaining a lot about Martha and I've seen some downright nasty things about Donna ALREADY from Martha fans.

This fandom makes me so sad. The pretension, IMO , is just off the charts. O_O It's a show about low budget *aliens*. Perspective?

Also didn't that article that everyone is wanking out over also screw up several details, including episode details? So really, who knows what RTD ACTUALLY SAID? Why do you fail me Who fandom?

Edited 2007-12-17 00:33 (UTC)

I don't really have anything to add, because I think you've said it all beautifully and without resorting to angry caps like I did LOL I applaud you for taking the time to form a coherent post about this, I didn't have the will or the strenght.

http://freemaagyeman.com/news/2007/12/14/martha-unit-doctor-who-series-four/

With the implication that Martha's going to be working for UNIT! And on a shallow note, I've always thought that she looks so much prettier with her hair down, so I really hope they will continue with having Martha look that fabulous for the new series *bounces*

I agree with everything.

I haven't really seen the crazy but I've been hearing about it. I stopped paying attention to DW fandom after the first season of DW.

Edited 2007-12-17 01:23 (UTC)

I sometimes wonder if I should do the same :/ The Rose hate in this fandom is like a freaking virus at this point, it just never ends.

And I know that there are many Rose fans that exist, but it just feels like we are so outnumbered compared to the haters, so I can only guess that most Rose fans tend to stick to shippy comms and such. I nearly always find general DW comms consisting of Martha love/Rose hate. So whenever I hear dislike that it's Rose fans that outnumber everyone in fandom, and spread the Rose love so heavily, I'm like damn where *g* Wherever I go it's Martha love, and it would just be nice to have more of a balance, and not feel that Rose is quite so hated. Or that we should feel obliged to hate Rose if we want to embrace Martha

I'm not even joking though, I think Who fandom is the craziest, most pretentious, and meanest of all the fandoms I've seen.

Co-sign!

I wonder how much hate is gonna come Donna's way? For all the complaining that the fandom did about how Rose fans should "get over it" when she left , they're sure complaining a lot about Martha and I've seen some downright nasty things about Donna ALREADY from Martha fans.

There was an actual petition set up against Donna! Not to mention the Rose hate is never-ending. The hypocrisy of it all amazes me.

Edited 2007-12-17 02:32 (UTC)

*hugs* I hate that if I make too many remarks defending Rose, people may label me a "batchipper". And if I make a comment defending Martha, some crazy D/R comm will put a black mark against your name. Not that I would even want to join, but just the idea of people being judged on whether or not they have "conflicting interests" is depressing.

As I've had issues with being judged over "confilcting interests" I definitely get what you're saying. I adore Rose, and I don't hide it but sometimes it gets hard to get your point across in fandom when you have a D/R layout and tons of Rose icons. It's also hard to explain to people that I also love Martha, because it screams "DOES NOT COMPUTE" to a lot of people.

There should be a community for people who are fans of both Rose and Martha! At least that way I could join in the squee over Martha, without inevitably stumbling across Rose hate of some kind or another. This fandom gets me down *sighs*

I would so be into that. I'm a member of a D/R comm, a Rose comm, a Billie comm, a Martha comm and a Freema comm but everywhere I go I watch my steps not offend any parties all the while being scared of walking in on someone bashing another character I love. It's kind of exhausting :( I'd totally be first in line to join a Martha and Rose love zone comm.

I think I must perhaps avoid much of the Martha hate because of not being part of any D/R shippy comm (other than nine_rose that is), because I haven't seen that much of it? But it feels like every LJ post squeeing over recent pics of Martha has had digs on Rose and BP in the comments, and just urgh

I adore Rose, and I don't hide it but sometimes it gets hard to get your point across in fandom when you have a D/R layout and tons of Rose icons.

And god yes, I so relate to that. I always get the impression that I will automatically get more respect if I use a Martha icon instead of a shippy Rose icon. Which kind of sucks

Edited 2007-12-17 01:40 (UTC)

I think I must perhaps avoid much of the Martha hate because of not being part of any D/R shippy comm, because I haven't seen that much of it? But it feels like every LJ post squeeing over recent pics of Martha has had digs on Rose and BP in the comments, and just urgh

I'm a member of a D/R shippy comm and I never see any Martha hate over there. I think most of the Martha hate is in a few close garded circles on LJ whereas Rose hate is the socially aceptable one and is therefore seen in the more general comms.

And god yes, I so relate to that. I always get the impression that I will automatically get more respect if I use a Martha icon instead of a shippy Rose icon. Which kind of sucks

Yeah, that's a really sad comment on the state of our fandom :(

I think you had an amazing idea when you mentioned a Martha and Rose comm. The fact that there isn't already one makes me sad. I know there are many people in fandom who like ourselves love both characters, but always get burried under the ton of hate that's poisoning the fandom.

Heh, word! Everyone seems to love him like everyone loved Four, but I can't get on that train. I mean, there's being human-clueless and there's just being an asstard.

I liked Rose. And it's perfectly understandable that the Doctor fell for her in a way he's rarely or never fallen for a companion before, and that he'd be devastated by her loss, and probably wouldn't fall for his next companion - or maybe any other companion ever - in the same way.

But the whole 'second best' thing could have been avoided simply by not having Martha be in love with the Doctor. (Or by going for a much older, much younger, happily married, or otherwise sexually unavailable companion and taking the romance issue off the table entirely.) The vast majority of companions have not been in love with the Doctor, nor he with them. The only reason I can see for making Martha be in love with the Doctor is to assure the audience that no companion will ever replace Rose in the Doctor's hearts, even if he lets them into the TARDIS. In that sense, Martha was created expressly to be second best to Rose. (That said, I don't think the Doctor treated her horribly - he treated her with the same oblivious arrogance he treats most of his companions, and was always honest with her.)

I'm not a shipper where DW is concerned, and I don't give a hoot who the Doctor wuvs best. But if every companion for the rest of the series is going to moon after the Doctor, be compared to the long-vanished Rose and found lacking, well, that's going to be kind of annoying.

Maybe you should, it's alot more entertaining that way.

The Rose hate in this fandom is like a freaking virus at this point, it just never ends.
That's the thing thought, DW fandom seems to have it in for Rose but from what I've seen the casual, not in DW fandom viewer loves Rose. They are not in DW fandom but are in other fandoms. I'm in the SGA fandom and when I brought up the fact that Rose was coming back there was much squee from people that I didn't even know watched DW. I was all shocked because DW fandom had me believing that most people hated Rose when in fact that is not true.

Also if most people are like me, than yes, we just stick to ship coms because I for one don't want to bother defending Rose ALL THE FUCKING TIME. Or trying to prove that I'm not a bat!shit Rose fan or shipper.

["I think the notion of "Martha is always going to be second best" is severely rubbed in the faces of us all, though, by the wholly unnecessary unrequited love. As you said, can't companions be appreciated in different ways?"]

You've got a point there. The whole unrequited love thing really wasn't necessary and it does lead to too much comparison with Rose that is not favorable to Martha. They should have left out that crap.

I don't agree with people having weird fits about this but I do think the unrequited love angle was unnecessary and detrimental. And I think the show was ruined in season 3 (and is going to be worse in season 4 with Donna) so I think there's definitely reason to be angry with RTD to some extent. I think the show is being totally flushed down the toilet and that certainly pisses me off.

["and slur their name by calling them a bigot"]

But some writers are bigots. Not talking about anyone on Doctor Who, but there are bigoted writers and showrunners out there.

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