frelling_tralk | (no subject)

Regarding the accusations of racism in Doctor Who

It's not DW's fault that Martha had to disguise herself as a maid in HN/FOB. DW's a show about time travel, of course the racism in history will come up occasionally, when a black actor or actress is cast as companion! It was a two-parter set in 1913 England, why blame DW for accurately portraying history? The episodes even showed John Smith and Joan being the ones to look like fools for underestimating Martha (who resolved the cliffhanger of HN, and had the knowledge of the bones in the hand moment).

And Rose was complaining in series two about the Doctor always sticking her in the serving position. Rose was dinner lady in SR, she was the waitress in the Cyberman episode. Martha's experiences in HN/FOB were not out of the norm for a companion, and I'm sure that Rose would have been the maid as well, if she was around for that episode. And Martha having to work in a shop in Blink to support the Doctor, only reflected badly on him! She was hardly the happy and "faithful servant" seeing as she suddenly burst out with how she has to support him now, and seemed pretty pissed off at his uselessness

And it's seen as humiliating for Martha to be loyal to the Doctor, but Rose was just as clingy in her time. The companions are supposed to be swept away by the Doctor. I mean what about Jack throwing dignity to the wind, and quite literally throwing himself on top of the Tardis? Freaking out over losing the Doctor's hand in the jar. Not to mention Jack emphasizing with Martha over being overlooked romantically by the Doctor in favour of Rose. Even Rose had to watch him flirting with the upper-class Madame De Pompadour in GITF. Martha wasn't supposed to come across as a loyal servant at all. What about her ordering the Doctor to tell her about Gallifrey in Gridlock. Saying "I'll do what I like" in TSOD. Slapping him in HN.

And there's upset over the Doctor not loving Martha romantically. But then wouldn't it have made the Doctor look incredibly shallow to love the next companion that crosses his path in the exact same way that he had loved Rose? So it seems the solution is either to have cast a white female for the role of next companion, or to have just completely messed up the Doctor's emotional arc. Plenty of people did fall for Martha. Martha got a snog in 42. Tom got killed by the Master in trying to protect Martha. Shakespeare flirted with Martha. The Doctor overlooked Martha because of his own issues, because of still being hung up on Rose. Are the casual audience really going to be sat at home thinking that the difference is that Rose was white, and Martha black? The Doctor would have been the same with any companion that wasn't Rose, which is backed up by the emphasis the word Rose is given throughout the season.

Yes the Master did make Martha's family his servants in TLOTT. And I was uncomfortable with that. We were supposed to be! There's also Jack in chains. There's the Doctor with a dog bowl, and being trained to respond to a bell. There's the massaging women (what would they be called?), Lucy rushing to get the Master's coat. Martha was actually the one character who escaped being humiliated by the Master, and returns to laugh in his face. I believe her brother would also have been involved in that, except the actor got double-booked by mistake?

And the Doctor did say that he would never ask Martha not to carry a gun. (He definitely said "ask" not "tell"). And again that's Martha being treated like everyone else. In Bad Wolf, the Doctor throws the gun aside, "like I was ever gonna use it". Last season he makes the comment that Torchwood can shoot him, but the moral high ground is his. And, in Utopia, the Doctor tells Jack "don't you dare" when Jack had a gun. It so wasn't a comment on "I can't believe you ever thought that Martha would do something I hadn't ordered her to do", it was a comment along the lines of, "as if I would promote the use of guns and killing".

Threaded | Flat

IMO if they hadn't have brought up the race issue in HN/FoB it would've seemed odd. I know racism is something people don't like to think existed but it sure as hell would've done at the time of that episode and I think it's brave of them to show it on a "kids" show. Just showing the way something would have actually been and making it realistic does not mean the show is endorsing anything.

Eh, there is too much fanwank in this fandom right now. I miss the days of Nine when everything seemed so much simpler.

Yes, to everything. I think people are just pissed off that The Doctor didn't fall in love with Martha. But I think that maybe her crush was set up so later when she comes back and The Doctor is not over but has accepted Rose being gone. Then he regenerates and Martha/Doctor ship. Or at least that's how I would do it since people are already invested in Martha.

But I would have liked Martha not being in love with The Doctor. It would have been an interesting dynamic, that they are probably going to play with Donna. Although I think I'm the only one that saw ust between them. lol.

I don't watch Who, but it seems to me like the same mindset that wants to ban Tom Sawyer or Gone With the Wind because they're racist.

Duh. 19th Century America WAS racist. Burying the ugly parts of our history only doom us to repeat them, it doesn't make them disappear.

Your argument is excellent, btw.

The thing that gets me thinking about all this? From what I've heard round the f-list, the Master arc was originally planned for Rose. So everything Martha was doing in the Last of the Timelords? Was supposed to be Rose.

As for race, I haven't seen a lot of that stuff yet but it doesn't sound racist to me. Though I could see why people would feel it's racist the EDoctor preferring the white woman over the black one but it really isn't racist. By contrast there's serious racism issues with the Buffyverse that made me most uncomfortable in Buffy season 7 and Angel season 5.

See, I can understand and see the charges of racism. Not so much with Martha as a character (she kicked ass) but with a whole bunch of little things that add up. Mickey being a cowering little simp, Billy being essentially killed off when he dares to flirt with a white woman, Martha's family as servants. I think the problem we're running into here is the lack of explanation. While in HN/FoB the fact that Martha was stuck being a maid was actually addressed, the rest of the incidents were just...there, or dismissed. Why would the Master, of all individuals, be a racist? He wants to dominate everyone. And while I don't buy him as a woman-abuser either, at least Lucy got to shoot him.

I don't watch TW, but I'm interested in knowing exactly who is making all the fuss. Is it blacks, or is it whites? Because, as someone made the comment above, the main ones that were crying out to ban Huckleberry Finn, Tom Sawyer, and books like that, were white Americans. Speaking for myself and other blacks that I know, we feel slighted when the racism isn't portrayed because it's denying that that part of history existed and makes it seem like we had no cause for complaint. I think part of it is that portraying this ugly part of American (hell...WORLD) history is uncomfortable for some (not ALL, some) white people because it makes them uncomfortable and they may feel that it'll start up something whereas they would rather it just stay in the past never to be spoken of...even though it still goes on today, but that's another story for another day.

Yes the Master did make Martha's family his servants in TLOTT.

Well, he certainly wasn't going to make them ambassadors, or guards, or "employees" in trusted positions, since they were the enemy. I have a lot of mixed feelings about some of your points, but overall, they were very well argued.