(no subject)

[frelling_tralk]

10 episodes of Angel that show how it was more than Buffy redux”

Episodes listed are To Shanshu In L.A from season 1, Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been from season 2, Fredless, Birthday, Waiting In The Wings, AND Forgiving from season 3, Soulless from season 4, and finally Smile Time, A Hole In The World, and Not Fade Away from season 5.

To me that that list is seriously failing when it comes to season 2, what about episodes like Darla and Reunion?!? Home from season 4 also deserves a mention IMO, as well as You're Welcome from season 5. Fredless is a cute episode and all, but is it really comparable to the best episodes of the series?

The writer of the article talks about season 3 clearly being the overall best season, "As with Buffy, fans of Angel argue over which is the best season. Is it the second, which properly begins the larger story and gives it scope? The fifth, which wraps up that story with some hard but inspiring lessons? Or the third, which… okay, there shouldn’t really be any contest here. It’s the third. Most of Whedon’s top-shelf writers were heavily involved in season three (including Greenwalt, Minear, Noxon, and Fury), as the plotting became more complex and sophisticated, with the characters making crucial decisions that didn’t always pan out. Most importantly, the third season properly introduces Fred, who soon becomes the clever, sunny, quirky fan favourite

I don't remember season 3 being a particular fan favourite, but then I was thinking about it and I'm not sure that Angel does have universally (well more or less) agreed "best seasons" like Buffy does? Some people really love season 4 and the heavy serialisation there, while some absolutely hate it for what it does to Cordelia's character. Some really love the darker moments of season 3 with Holtz and Wesley, but then I saw a lot of dislike for "Soap Opera elements" at the time when season 3 was first airing, the Angel/Cordelia romance, dorky Angel, and the birth of Conner were by no means universally popular. With Buffy it's generally pretty easy to point to seasons 2, 3, and 5 as the clear favourites, but every Angel season seems to get a LOT of debate between love or hate from what I've seen.

To go off on a tangent for a moment, it seems like most of the hate for season 4 is because of Cordelia's character being lost that year, but I'd argue that already started happening in season 3. The first half of season 3 was great for portraying a more mature Cordelia, but the more they pushed the Angel/Cordelia romance, the more they started writing Cordelia as a Saint and Mother figure for Conner which just didn't work IMO and rang really false. Again at the time I remember a ton of controversy at how Cordelia was being written, especially all the fan jokes on the season 3 finale when she's carried off to the Heavens with twinkly lights, so it's interesting that season 4 takes all the blame for "ruining her character". Technically season 4 was not Cordelia any more, so there's actually more of a justification for the writing of her that year, in comparison to the saintly blonde that Double Or Nothing introduced to us. I remember speculation at the time was that it was down to David Greenwalt getting too carried away with seeing Cordelia as perfect, but I'm wondering now if it was more about fast-tracking Cordelia character arc to becoming a higher being, and thus wrapping up her journey? I remember at the end of season 4 that Joss said something to that effect of having nowhere else to take Cordelia's character at that point

It seemed that Joss allowed behind the scenes drama to affect the writing for Cordelia in quite negative ways unfortunately. I've noticed that posters on ohnotheydidnt get super-defensive if you imply that the treatment of Charisma was about anything other than Joss firing her for getting pregnant, but I would argue there were a lot of weird vibes in season 3 as well, there was definitely speculation at the time as to whether the Ascension was a way of writing Cordelia out. It's just a shame that Joss allowed whatever BTS drama there was to make its way onto the writing of the character

And this entry is starting to get really O/T, so maybe I should stop there :P But here's a poll anyway for favourite Angel season!

[Poll #2017986]

Comments

[penderies.livejournal.com]

I never got as attached to Angel as I did to Buffy. I loved season one, parts of two, three, four and five, but it's not a show I can watch again and again like Buffy. I don't have strong attachments to anyone save Wesley, Spike, Fred and Cordelia. I still adore it, but it just never touched me the way Buffy did.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Yeah I feel the same way, I rarely talk about Angel. It was a good show, but I never got all that attached to any of the main characters, I was especially indifferent to Angel's character which didn't really help with my emotional investment! Cordelia was my favourite of the Ats regulars, but then obviously her character was lost during season 3

I think that I was most drawn in to the villainous characters on Ats actually, Lilah was always fun

[sabotabby]

Which is the one where Wes talks to the hamburger? That was probably my favourite moment on any Whedon show, ever.

Anyway, I think the problem with Cordelia is that Joss knows a set number of arcs and personality types for women. She started off as The Bitch (which was a fantastic role, IMO) and once her character arc had surpassed that, he couldn't think of anywhere for her to go. So she got shoehorned into the Ascended/Mother/Saint, which is fairly universally uninteresting as a character trope and didn't fit anything we knew about her, and she somehow went from one of the best characters in the 'verse to someone whose final death didn't matter to me whatsoever.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Heh that was Loyalty from season 3. There were definitely some really strong episodes that year, Lullaby is another that could have arguably been included in the top ten, but it also always seemed like a very uneven season to me. It was great when it was hitting the high points of the arc, but then you'd get weird filler like Dad, Provider, Couplet, Double Or Nothing etc etc in between those episodes

And hmm maybe. I mean I'm speculating about if BTS drama had that much of an effect on some of the choices made in season 3, just because the way they pushed her as a Saint that had hit the end of the road was awfully rushed towards the end of the season (lol remember when she ~purged~ Conner of the hate in his heart), but there was also the fact that shoehorning her in as Angel's love interest seemed to cause quite a drastic change to her character even before that? She was always the blunt and tactless friend who wasn't afraid to stand up to Angel and tell him what she thought of him, but once the romance was introduced it started taking a weird turn with Cordelia suddenly being ALL about Angel, none of her other relationships (like Wesley) seemed to matter to to her any more. "Angel is the only person I care about". That said some pretty weird stuff about the writers views, but then I was never a fan of the writing of the relationships on Ats

[verdande-mi.livejournal.com]

I liked Angel more than Buffy (I do not think I have seen all of Buffy). I was never fanish (before my fandom days) or that into this show, but I truly enjoyed it and I am doing a re-watch at the moment, well it's been some time again since my last episode, I should get on that :)

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I'm the opposite in that I was way more emotionally attached to the characters on Buffy, but Angel did have its moments. Season 2 was probably the season that affected me the most, I loved all of the stuff with Darla, W&H, darker Angel, Drusilla etc. It was just a shame that, once Angel was back with the gang again, they didn't seem to know where to take the season from there, but the first half of the year had some seriously epic moments

How far along on you on your rewatch? :)

[velvetwhip.livejournal.com]

I have to admit that AtS just never really did it for me. I know it was "darker" and that should have made it a lock for me, but other than Angel (and later, Spike), I never really was invested in the rest of the characters, which made it a lot harder to stay interested. Especially since I've never been a Cordelia fan and she became central.


Gabrielle

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I feel the same way, I never cared about any of them the way that I cared about the characters on Buffy, I was the rare viewer that didn't care that much for Wesley's arc even. Intellectually I can appreciate that it was well-done, but I always found darker Wesley too cold to really be drawn in by his struggles Idk. I did like Cordelia more than you did though, but then the writing for her character ended up all over the place halfway through the series

[lynnenne]

For me the best seasons are 2 and 5. Season 5 is really where the central metaphor of the show found its feet and took hold (that adulthood is rife with selling out and compromise), and it's a crime that it was cancelled after that - especially since the ratings went UP by about 20 percent.

I do love Season 2, though, for the whole Darla and Drusilla arc.

I'm working on a meta about what made Angel groundbreaking at the time. Nearly every article I've read recently completely misses the mark.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Seasons 2 and 5 are my favs as well! I loved everything with Dru and Darla in season 2, and then season 5 really saw the show hits its stride when it came to knocking out one consistently excellent episode after another.

I look forward to reading you meta :) I agree that Ats was definitely ahead of its time, especially in how it wasn't afraid to depict its main characters as really flawed and messed-up people

[http://users.livejournal.com/_profiterole_/]

To me, it was clearly Season 5, because of Spike (I was always more of a fan of BtVS than of Angel) and also because of Illyria.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

It's interesting, I wasn't expecting season 5 to emerge as such a clear favourite but, thinking about it, it probably was the most consistently strong season? Especially the back half which just had one great episode after another, while most of the earlier seasons tended to struggle a lot more with generic filler episodes in between the great arc episodes. Season 5 had one or two crappier episodes in the first half, but it also had some really strong steaks with episodes like Lineage, Destiny, and Damage all following one another for one, or Smile Time, A Hole In The World, Shells, Underneath, and Origins as another great run

And Illyria was one of my favourites without a doubt <3

[molly_may]

I haven't rewatched Angel in a really long time, and as a result I don't have any terribly strong opinions about it, but even so I was kind of baffled by all the S3 love in that article. I would take ALL of those S3 episodes off the list, replace them with "Loyalty" because it has a talking hamburger, and add in some S2 eps like "Darla" and "Reunion" and "Home" from S4.

I think Joss is on record as saying S3 is his favorite too, and I just don't get it. There's absolutely nothing about that season that stands out to me, whereas S2 has the Darla arc, and S4, while being a big mess in a lot of ways, puts together a strong/creepy string of episodes with the Jasmine arc, and S5 has a strong central metaphor and a number of enjoyable episodes. S3 I just remember as being a bunch of boring baby blahblah, mumbly Holtz (I know lots of people liked him, but I never found him interesting), and Cordelia's characterization going completely down the drain.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

RIGHT! I don't remember season 3 being popular at all, if anything I remember the message boards of the time hated a lot of what they did that year with Angel becoming a father and everything else, so I was really surprised to see it suggested that season 3 was the universal favourite season. I would keep Forgiving on that list because I really thought that episode was great, but there was soooo much terrible filler in between those arc high points. Dad, Provider, Couplet, Double Or Nothing, The Price! It didn't even start particularly strongly either.

It was definitely a season that would have really benefited from the shorter seasons on cable, even some of the arc episodes were stretched out, Darla's return for one really didn't need all three of those episodes and could have lost the middle part of that three-parter easily

[shapinglight]

Season 3 of AtS actually is my favourite season. I love the Angel/Cordy romance, baby Connor, the Darla episodes, all the stuff with Wesley, Justine and Holtz. I jumped out of my skin when Angel tried to suffocate Wesley with a pillow. Boy, that was dark.

Brilliant, brilliant season, though there are a few episodes that aren't that great, among which I'd personally include Fredless. I like Fred fine, but I don't think that's a great episode.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I did like when the show dealt with the main arc, Loyalty, Sleep Tight, and Forgiving were incredible, but it just seemed like a really up and down season for me in between those bigger moments

Maybe it didn't help that I wasn't into the Angel/Cordelia romance, it always felt a bit forced to me tbh. I really wasn't sure what to make of Angel thinking of settling down with Cordelia, or becoming a father and juggling work with a crying infant, it was when things for dark that I really enjoyed that year the most

[ladyoneill.livejournal.com]

While I loved every single scene of Dark Wes/Lilah in Season 4, I didn't like the whole Cordy possession/Jasmine thing very much, so I'd have to go with Season 5 for tatted up Lindsey and Spike being around. The only season I hardly ever rewatch any of is Season 1. The rest have lots of great eps for various reasons.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Aww I think that season 1 is kind of underrated, it had its share of bad episodes, but there were some strong ones mixed up in there too! I did like the whole family vibe they had going on with Angel, Cordelia, and Wesley in the second half of that year, they seemed to lose that family feel a little bit later on IMO

[bm-shipper.livejournal.com]

I am considering watching Buffy/Angel after I'm done with LOST, which can totally take a while, but I heard so many things about them and the ex girlfriend of my brother is raving on and on about it and thinks I'd love it :D

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

You should absolutely watch them, especially Buffy! :D

[bearshorty.livejournal.com]

Season 5 is my favorite, for sure. It's the only season I own on DVD.

A lot of it has to do with Spike, who is my favorite, but I just enjoy the premise of the season. I also like almost all of the episodes.

I'm not a giant fan of Season 3. It's allright. I don't like Season 4 and not just because of what happened to Cordelia. I just wasn't a fan of teenage Connor or Jasmine. The only thing I liked from that season is dark Wesley. And Lilah, who I adore.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking that I should probably get out my DVDs for season 5 sometime for a rewatch, there was a run of really strong episodes that season

And Lilah was awesome :) I'm so bummed that we had to lose her for Eve over stupid budget reasons urgh

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

I don't think I have a favorite season. Every year it seemed like there were things I liked juxtaposed against things I really didn't. I'd say... 2.5 to 3.5? Can you start and end mid-way through a season? :P I never enjoyed Angel like BTVS but at the same time it never angered me like Buffy.

Most importantly, the third season properly introduces Fred, who soon becomes the clever, sunny, quirky fan favourite

Yeah, I suspect the writer is showing a little bias there. I wouldn't call Fred a fan favorite, tbh. For a long time, my feel of other folks was she was like Tara. Most people liked her or didn't mind her (except when she came between Gunn and Wes), but not many I saw were 'fav character!' or anything.

Random possibly unpopular opinion... S5 doesn't match the show to me. It sticks out and feels like something the writers tacked on as an allegory for them compromising with the WB than an organic Angel story. To me, the show was always about finding your place in the world, inner peace and family. S5 is kinda the opposite. While I enjoy some stuff in S5 like TGIQ, it feels like it doesn't count. I'm not all 'not canon!' about it, but I have this unbidden mental switch-off that the whole 'verse ends with Chosen/Home.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Every year it seemed like there were things I liked juxtaposed against things I really didn't.

I'd say those are my thoughts as well, it seemed like they had some really amazing emotional stakes and incredible episodes planned out for seasons 2-4 with the big arc stuff, but every season was also very inconsistent when it came to handling the filler episodes in between. I can't say that any season was an unproblematic fav for me in the say that some of my fav seasons of Buffy are, just because I can always find so much to nitpick each year. As I said above, I think that it would have really benefited from shorter seasons, just because there were certain points in every season where they didn't seem to know what to do to fill up the space. Except maybe season 4, ironically the most unpopular season, but there wasn't a run of irrelevant stuff there in the same way as they seemed very sure of where they were taking the story that year and kept building on that

And yeah I don't know about Fred, some people really loved her of course, but it always seemed like just as many people found her annoying and Mary-Sue'ish? Maybe her tragic death caused people to look back more favourably on her I guess, but she was never an obvious fan fav the way that characters like Spike and Willow were on Buffy I wouldn't have thought. If anything I thought that Cordelia was the more popular female lead, but maybe I'm not very in tune with the Ats fandom

And hmm I do remember at the time that some Angel fans didn't love season 5, and maybe my flist is a biased sample lol as there are a lot of Spike fans voting, but it worked for me. It definitely got a bit corporate that year in comparison to how Angel usually did things, but I thought they made good use of that tonal shift, emphasising how off-balance even the characters themselves were with their new arrangement. I can see what you're saying though, you can definitely read Joss's feelings on compromising himself in his dealings with the higher-ups into it, and that's arguably not very relevant to what they originally interestested in exploring with Angel. It does feel like the most Joss season of all the seasons on Ats, I remember David Fury commenting that he and Jeffrey Bell had originally planned the season out differently, but then Joss came in and rewrote it all. Still ultimately they created an interesting season out of it IMHO, and they did get back to the original mission statement of the show in the end when Angel rejects the power offered and goes back to being the hero working against ~the man~

[12-12-12.livejournal.com]

I think S4 of AtS is criminally underrated. I was so surprised when I started poking around in fandom after the fact and came across so much fandom bashing of it, and of Cordelia's character arc in particular.

It's a tricky issue because based on what I've read, Charisma Carpenter was treated horribly on set during the later seasons. But there seems to be this weird backwards logic in fandom that this means all fandom criticism of S4-S5, and Whedon's showrunning, and Cordelia's narrative, is of course merited and rational and Objectively Meritorious, and surely that's nonsense. In fact, the impression I've gotten is that ~righteous indignation on Charisma's behalf is often wielded as a tool by fandom to vent its frustration over Cordy's story not turning out the way people wanted it to, and to try and justify that frustration on Moral Grounds (as opposed to, "we just don't like it")… which is not the same thing as her story being Bad, Period.

If anything, when I was watching S4 whilst isolated from mainstream fandom, I thought it did a great job of retroactively repairing much of the damage that could've been done during S3--I thought the story of Cordelia being tricked into a trap by TPTB through hubris, and buying into a Saint Cordelia Champion Narrative, was a compelling one and more emotionally honest and psychologically plausible than the story we seemed to be getting in S3, even though it was tragic. Of course, there is the larger issue of AtS having a gross recurring issue with turning its women into vessels who then get hollowed out and die, but I'm a bit suspicious of how much of Blanket Fandom Indignation for this show gets focused on Cordy's arc to the exclusion of almost all else.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I totally agree, at the time I definitely felt like it was season 3 that started mishandling Cordelia's character and trying too hard to push her as the wise Saint (because really where do you take a character from there?). Some fans got peeved at Skip later laughing at Cordelia being chosen because 'she's such a pure and radiant Saint, please ', but that's a retcon that actually totally works for me. It is very Cordelia to fall victim to her own pride, she was always very into this idea of her and Angel being special Champions set apart from other people, there are so many examples of her giving speeches to that affect, so the powers came up with the perfect plan to appeal to her pride and make it the tragic cause of her downfall. It's actually way more consistent with Cordelia's character than some of the stuff they were trying to pull in late season 3, the retcon makes perfect sense of the show trying to play it straight that Cordelia is too good for this world and ready to ascend to the heavens

It seems like the sex with Connor is the big black mark against Cordelia's arc in season 4 for many viewers, but that's ignoring the fact that it was never Cordelia in control at that time

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

I really need to rewatch Angel all the way through because, even though I watched it when it was airing, I cannot recall most things that happened throughout the series or pinpoint the seasons I remember things from. Not that it was bad, as I know I enjoyed what I saw for the most part, but I was more of a BTVS fangirl at the time despite watching both series.

I wasn't aware of was going on BTS during the time it was airing, and it wasn't until very recently that I heard about that incident in particular. Needless to say, it's disappointing to hear about the tension that happened and what conspired because of it. I'm just relieved that Joss and Charisma have reconciled since then.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I was pleasantly surprised to see them together on the Buffy roundtable discussion, and Charisma talked about that at a convention that they really cleared the air there and agreed that they would like to work with one another again :)

[tasabian.livejournal.com]

I haven't rewatched since it aired but I remember S2 as the best writing for Cordy, Gunn & Wesley. If S6 had happened would have been interesting to see where they took the characters next.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I was really interested in what David Fury was saying of their plans to turn LA into a post-apocalyptic wasteland for season 6 and completely revamp the show again, it's too bad they never got the chance to carry those plans out

And I got your email, thank you :)

[local-max.livejournal.com]

I can't choose between s2-5, all of which I think are great with significant flaws. However, s3 would probably be slightly my least favourite of those four (s1 is last). I am not a fan of Noel Murray's take on the franchise overall though (I mean, I disagree with many of his recaps etc.). The Fred thing is weird -- like, I like Fred, but how does Fredless get "ten best/most representative eps" placement for "Fred is in this one a lot!" reasons? I love "Lullaby," and "Waiting in the Wings," and the Holtz-Wesley-Connor plot is epic, and Connor's return in the last few eps, but Angel/Cordy largely fails, the Cordy stuff is largely hard for me to watch, there are lots of awful one-offs ("Provider," "Double or Nothing")....

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I didn't really get the Fredless inclusion either, it's not like it was the episode that introduced Fred, or even the best Fred episode (personally I'm partial to Supersymmetry if it comes to it), so it seemed quite random to pick that one out just because it had a lot of Fred in it!

And yeah I think they had an interesting season planned overall, but there were some really awful one-offs mixed up in there, and the characterisation was not at its strongest that year. I wasn't a fan of this when they did it on Smallvile with L&C either, but I hated how the other characters started telling Angel and Cordelia that they were in love and that they made sense together, it felt so forced

[waltzmatildah.livejournal.com]

All I have to add is that I really, REALLY need to re-watch both BtVS and AtS. I should just invest in the DVDs. It's an absolute crime that I don't already own them... Thanks for the timely butt kick!!

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

You really do! I'm pretty such that Buffy is on Netflix actually if you want to stream it first and see what you think before investing in the DVDs

[ever-neutral.livejournal.com]

THIS LIST DONE RESURRECTED!DARLA WRONG.

And season three??? Really? The season of Darla's redemption-via-motherhood? NHFT.

/pressed Darla stan

Now that I've got out of the way. Angel is such a wack show, man. As much as I HATEHATEHATE some of the things it chose to be, I still can't write any season off completely because EPIC FUCKERY will usually be followed with some kind of brilliance (e.g. Fred being fridged --> the Illyria arc). I'm choosing season 2 sheerly because it lacks the EPIC FUCKERY part. /trolololol

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

So very true! Ats always seemed really inconsistent to me, to be fair its dramatic arcs arguably reached far greater heights than Bts with some of the risks that they took, but honestly it's the day to day episodes squashed in between those arcs (Provider anyone?) that lets it down for me overall. I always felt like they knew how to give the big moments some kick, but then not how to follow on from there.

Even season 2 suffers from that to an extent with episodes like Blood Money and Happy Anniversary really failing to live up to the epicness of the mid-season and 'I just can't see to care'. At the time I was way more excited for that whole Darla arc then I was for the early Bts season 5 episodes quite honestly (I was dead and gone at some of those cliffhanger endings, like when Drusilla first shows up to turn Darla!!), but taken overall I would still pick how season 5 of Bts came together over Ats season 2 anyday

[xfirefly9x.livejournal.com]

Season 1, because Kate and Doyle. ♥

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Aww, season 1 and that whole family feel they had going on then does make me nostalgic, I was pleasantly surprised to see season 1 getting a few votes

[lynzie914.livejournal.com]

I chose S4 because I've always had a special love of that season (it was the first one I watched and then later went back to watch the series chronologically), but I personally loved a lot of the darkness, the unexpected things that happened, how ALL the characters had changed and yet were the same at the same time. Also the return of Faith was a good addition. Season two would probably be my second choice, I loved all the Darla stuff, Angel becoming darker, the rest of them learning to stand on their own, and I love the Pylea arc.

I agree that the article seemed very bias and just...I feel like there were episodes that served the series as a whole better than some that they chose, that represented what the show was. I LOVE Fredless, its one of my personal favorites because Fred is one of my favorite characters, but I'd never put it on a top 10 list for someone wanting to see what the show was about. A character study episode maybe? But even then, Supersymmetry fits her so much better as a character study. I feel like reading the article that the writer didn't even get her character, nothing he described really grabbed me for the reasons I loved her. (Also, Fred was one of my favorite characters in general but I have never gotten the sense she was a fan favorite. NEVER. I've known people who hated her. So that confuses me more. Have things changed?)

Also totally agree about S3. For me S3 just doesn't do it. There were a lot of good singular episodes but there's been more than once that I've stopped in the middle of a rewatch getting actually bored with S3 and ending up watching something else. It is not the best season of the show. It has some good story arcs and some really good character moments and stories. But it just doesn't stay with you in the same way that a lot of the other seasons do.

Also, poor S1, I feel bad it doesn't get more love. For a first season, its actually really good, even if it is more of a one off episode, it still holds small arcs and develops arcs. Kate being a big one that people just seem to forget about.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Season 4 isn't my favourite season, but I do think that it's underrated as the overall plot was really strong that year. If anything I would argue that it's a better example of an Angel season, as season 5 was more a revamp of the forumula with the move to W&H and return to standalones (although I do love that year!), while season 4 was just ramping up the apocalyptic drama all year and is probably a better example of the show doing what it does best. My order of preferred seasons would probably go 2, 5, 4, 1, 3

Also, Fred was one of my favorite characters in general but I have never gotten the sense she was a fan favorite. NEVER. I've known people who hated her. So that confuses me more. Have things changed?)

Honestly I'm not sure about that either. She definitely has fans who name her as their favourite, and the fans that love her seem to REALLY love her, but I do remember a mixed response with some viewers being quite hostile when she was first added as a regular and finding her crazy moments irritating rather than endearing. I would have said that Cordelia was the fan favourite for sure over Fred, and Fred was more the favourite of the writers room. As I said above, I wonder if the tragic way that she died changed opinions on her, because it does seem like she became more popular after that and people became nostalgic when Illyria appeared as Fred? Or maybe it was just that Amy Ackler got more credit, I remember there occasionally being comments on her just playing herself as Fred and some viewers not being so complimentary of her abilities, and then there was obviously a huge turnaround with those opinions after she started playing Illyria

[endeni]

Also what about Lullaby and Sleep Tight?
Agreed that with Ats is hard to choose a favorite season because with every season the good is very good but the bad is also often pretty bad. Still, if I had to choose I'm afraid I'd go with season 3 because I'm a sucker for Wesley and all the Connor-induced drama but, yes, the treatment of Cordelia was abysmal (in season 4 too) and I never bought the Cordy/Angel romance either...
/it seems like most of the hate for season 4 is because of Cordelia's character being lost that year, but I'd argue that already started happening in season 3/ - Oh, absolutely.
/Technically season 4 was not Cordelia any more, so there's actually more of a justification for the writing of her that year, in comparison to the saintly blonde that Double Or Nothing introduced to us./ - LOL, agreed but seeing Cordelia and Connor together was just the icing on the cake, bleah...
/but I'm wondering now if it was more about fast-tracking Cordelia character arc to becoming a higher being, and thus wrapping up her journey?/ - Oh, yes, the problem with Ats is definitely that, to follow grandiose plot arcs, character personalities sometimes end up getting warped in absurd ways.
/I remember at the end of season 4 that Joss said something to that effect of having nowhere else to take Cordelia's character at that point/ - Actually, I think Cordelia's arc was pretty much done by the end of season 1. Season 2 was all a repetition of the same arc and the season 3 one was pretty abysmal, so...
And I see that the pool crowned season 5 as the best season, which I find a bit weird? (Except for the fact that season 5 has Illyria, of course, that's awesome.)
Season 5 seems to be the favorite season of those who are mainly BtVS fans because it is the less tied to long plot arcs and mostly composed of one-shots episodes. Also Spike.
But how can you not be fascinated by the terrific complex plot of season 3/4? (With the Cordelia exception, of course.)

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, the problem with Ats is definitely that, to follow grandiose plot arcs, character personalities sometimes end up getting warped in absurd ways.

Yeah, I'd argue that season 4 was one of the best Ats seasons when it comes to the overall plot being pretty tight that year, but it's not my favourite season because it's just not as great for character arcs. At times it felt like Angel and Wesley were the writers only priorities, Cordelia, Gunn, Lorne, and to an extent Fred, all kind of fell by the wayside

Season 5 seems to be the favorite season of those who are mainly BtVS fans because it is the less tied to long plot arcs and mostly composed of one-shots episodes. Also Spike.

My flist is probably a pretty biased sample as I do have a lot of BtVS and Spike fans friended! I did find it interesting though that season 1-4 all seemed to get almost an equal amount of love (even season 4 gathered a few more votes in the end), while with BtVS it's definitely a lot easier to pinpoint the fan favourite seasons. I'm still not really sure what those would be with AtS...

[metanewsmods.livejournal.com]

Hello! May we link to this on [Unknown site tag]? We also post our link roundups to DW and Tumblr.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's fine :)