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Just came across avclub doing Farscape reviews :D http://www.avclub.com/articles/premiere,93193/

This comment made me laugh "Crichton's pop culture references make him seem like the kind of dick who makes jokes that he doesn't expect anyone to get, then he becomes annoyed when those around him are bewildered. He is Earth's first hipster ambassador to the universe." Cause yeah it's kind of true. Like I get why he would try to center himself by making pop culture references to what he knows, but in the first season especially why is he always questioning how anyone could not have seen the same movies as he has, or saying stuff like how can you not have heard of John Wayne? Not a complaint exactly as I do love all of his pop culture references, just if you landed in space would you expect very alien creatures to have seen the same movies as you have!

And reading the comments reminded me that the supporting cast character-centric episodes never really worked for me. The writers got some criticism for later shifting the focus almost exclusively to John and Aeryn in seasons 3 and especially 4, but for me the show was at its best when it was John's experiences driving the narrative. It was nearly always less interesting to me when the entire focus of an episode was D'Argo, Zhann, Chianna, or Rygel. Yes the beginning of the series was better at spreading the focus, but did anyone ever really pine for episodes like "Taking The Stone", Vitas Mortis", "Rhapsody In Blue"?

One of the few episodes of that type I thought they carried off REALLY well was Incubator with Scorpuis. Maybe because it was more the case of focusing on the personal history of a character we already knew and were invested in, as opposed to some of the strange alien societies that we were supposed to care about in those one-off seasons 1 and 2 episodes, which generally had big roles for a guest cast that the audience didn't much care about? I always liked the Aeryn episodes though and I suppose she was as much alien as any of them, so I'm not sure what it was about episodes like "Mental As Anything" that send me to sleep, but gosh did they!

Reading the reviews really makes me want to rewatch Farscape from the beginning, but there's sooo many other shows I want to catch up on right now that there's just no way. It's a hard life :P

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That quote immediately made me think of Joss, to be honest. (I haven't watched Farscape btw.) For instance, the references to comics (Dark Phoenix = Dark Willow, Nick Fury) that are built into the show. But it's also strange to me how often the references in the show are ones that the writers would know but I doubt the characters (or a lot of the audience) back in the day would be as familiar with. (I'm thinking of Warren's "she'll be tripping like a Ken Russell movie" in NA; or Xander and Willow's conversation about the Captain and Tennille at the start of Ted as if they'd grown up watching their variety show in the '70's. Buffy was born in 1980 and Xander maybe a year before so, no, really not. ) the positive side of that is that I can identify with those references.

Also the "then becomes annoyed" part reminds me of Joss' non-apology after Tara's death, his equally snippy "apology" in the last installment of the S8 comics; but also of Baz Luhrmann and - pretty much any "baby king" creator who is worshipped like a god. We all need someone to say "I love you but, no."

Heh coming from the UK I didn't pick up half of the references at the time either! But with characters like Warren, Xander, and Willow I can hand-wave it as them being likely to have watched a lot of old and geekier shows maybe? They're quoting old sci fi movies to one another in When She Was Bad, they're watching bad tv in Reptile Boy when they can't afford to go out, so I always imagine them watching a ton of old tv shows and movies, particularly when they were younger and before Buffy came to town

Cordelia bringing up the Zeppo is always a reference I struggle with more, some of the references she made seemed a bit more unlikely for her character

Cordelia bringing up the Zeppo is always a reference I struggle with more, some of the references she made seemed a bit more unlikely for her character

True enough, but I handwave that away basically as - well the writers just wanted her to say something funny. But honestly I think Cordy was a lot smarter than she let on.

But then again so was Xander - re: his response to Buffy's William Burrows reference in New Moon Rising.

so I always imagine them watching a ton of old tv shows and movies, particularly when they were younger and before Buffy came to town

But when did cable tv become common? (And given that Xander is clearly working-class, his family wouldn't have been the first to get it anyway. My family certainly didn't until we had to because it was the only way to get tv anymore.) And channels like the American Movie Channel, etc just didn't exist when Xander and Willow were growing up; and the Captain & Tennille was ten years too early at least for them to remember. I still tend to think that the writers were using their own cultural references rather than ones that someone born in 1980 would most likely have been familiar with. IMO. Kennedy & Willow's reference to the movie Moulin Rouge (and Willow's habit of turning the DVD off before the sad ending -right there with ya, Will) is very au currant by comparison.

What was Joss's apology in the Buffy comics BTW?

I actually read it in the comic store (I don't have the money to spend on those things) so I had to look it up - hooray for the 'net:
http://www.darkhorse.com/Blog/228/ending-buffy-season-8

Re-reading it, it actually doesn't sound as bad as when I first wrote it (which came off as slightly mocking the first time around) but its still a little - weird, if that makes sense?

"We’ve laughed, we’ve cried, we’ve thrown up a little in our mouths, but most of all we’ve learned. Not you guys—us. We’ve learned what you like, what you don’t, how this TV show translated to the world of comics, and how it didn’t quite. We’ve lost a few fans along the way and, hopefully, gained a few...."

I was so excited to finally have an unlimited budget that I wanted to make the book an epic, but I realized along the way that the things I loved the best were the things you loved the best: the peeps. The down-to-earth, recognizable people. And Mecha-Dawn. (She has a tail!) So that’s what we’ll try to evoke next season..."

Huh-wha? I don't know about anyone else, but Dawn's transformations? The sexualized aspect and jokes during the Centaur stage (oh, and topless, etc)? the violation and loss of control of one's own body is FUNNY? I'm sorry but - no. Huge NO. And they supposedly "learned what we like" - which we is this? the numbers continue to plummet for the title, the artwork is abysmal and rote; and the violations of Buffy's body? STILL NOT FUNNY.

True, I didn't grow up in the DVD age myself, but it's still kind of weird to remember that there was a time in the 90's when we couldn't just buy the DVDs or streams shows that we were interested in. Jane Espenson did talk about Band Candy not being entirely accurate actually as she wrote all of the adults as talking like they were from the 70's, and later she found a review pointing out that Snyder was older than that

as she wrote all of the adults as talking like they were from the 70's, and later she found a review pointing out that Snyder was older than that

Remember when Joyce calls the shop window coat "So Juice Newton"? My reaction was definitely WTF? - It's not "Juice Newton", it's more "Stevie Nicks"; and if Newton came onto the scene around 1981 (a year after Buffy was born) then why in the world is a supposedly 16 year old Joyce making a reference to her? So that wasn't even right.

But it's worth it for "Summers you drive like a spaz!", and the callback in Earshot: "You had sex with Giles? On top of a police car? TWICE?"

Let's see: sex with inappropriate, dangerous (and/or wanna-be dangerous) men in public places with handcuffs - and we wonder where Buffy gets her kinks from? Apple doesn't fall far from the tree, y'all.

Heh very true :P And thanks for the info on the comics! Joss isn't that involved with the season 9 comics is he? From what I've heard they've been even less popular than season 8 was

I definitely recommend going to

infinitewhale's LJ because they (she?) keeps up with the sales figures - and it's a great safe space to gripe about them. I don't know if

rahirah still posts about them or not, I haven't checked lately.

BTW - I forgot the other thing about that "apology" that still somewhat bothers me. Maybe bothers me a lot: *Warning - RANT* "But the challenge of reconciling the optimistic, empowering message of the final episode with the dystopian, Slayerless vision of Fray’s future gave Season 8 a genuine weight. There is never progress without hateful, reactionary blowback. That’s never been more apparent than in today’s political scene in America. The mission was to deal with the consequences of Buffy and Willow’s empowering spell (the good and the terrible), steer toward a possible Fray future without undoing all the good Buffy had done (the girls still have their power), and tee us up for a very different Season 9. "

Hateful reactionary blowback from human beings (or even demons in this context)? Sure - but from the Universe itself because Buffy "upset the balance"? Huh? First, that to me smacks of an outdated Newtonian/
Enlightenment view of the Universe as clockworks run precisely by God as the great Clockmaker (which is a horribly shortened explanation btw.) And what does the spacefrak and Spike's spaceship have to do with any of that?

I'm not sure WHY they had to steer towards the Frayverse (which they actually did on the show by adding the Scythe in S7, which I understand came from the Frayverse comics.) And doing it on Buffy's watch - later than a later time, say - actually undermines the message of Chosen (was he lying then or did he just change his mind after people pointed out the problematic elements?) And I'm with that it undoes or repeats her Hero's Journey arc - find a new story to tell. So Buffy is back to being isolated, unable to connect, and not only blaming herself for everything but everyone else blaming her too for outcomes she couldn't have predicted? (While Angel's actions are whitewashed?) Which leaves the impression that there weren't ANY good outcomes to the spell? No, no thank you.

Also, if you're going to put Spike in a space ship *grumblegrumble* why have bugs for a crew? Why not PENGUINS? Everyone in Spuffy fandom knows penguins are awesome, right?

infinitewhale*'s LJ because they (she?)

He's a he ;)

And cool, thanks for all the info! I have to confess a lot of it is going over my head as I've never read the comics myself, but I do find it interesting reading other people's responses to them. It would bother me greatly if they tried to take away the ending of Chosen, I was always one of the fans who loved what Buffy did there for the other potential slayers

He's a he ;)

REALLY? You're sure? I don't know if I should say thank you or try to forget it because we talk a lot & I have in my head that he's a she - I guess "she" is my default assumption unless I know otherwise. Which is not a bad thing - I thought the same of

norwie2010 and

kervik. (And "he" used to be the default assumption for centuries.) They are all IMO true "feminists" who have really checked their privileges at the door or are at least very aware of it. (Kervik writes with such sensitivity about lesbian/bi characters that I thought he was a lesbian.)

Actually, all the men on my flist are feminists and write marvelously about female characters, and are less likely to victimize Buffy or other female characters than many female fans. I'm happy that there are men like them out there but what the hell does that say about my gender? (I was about to say "our" but then I realize I don't know yours, either!)

As far as I know anyway, he used to post as Mikeyg before deleting and starting up the new account, so I've always assumed that he was male

And I'm female lol, my name's Naomi :)

And I'm Janice, nice to meet you! (Comlodge is also Janice so I refer to myself there as The Other Janice. Not too many Janice's around, particularly with that spelling.)

(And re: infinitewhale I have just now asked them directly - with the caveat that they didn't have to confirm either way.) but we are so of one mind on so many issues, especially feminism (or lack thereof in the Buffyverse) that it's amazing.

Infinitewhale is Mikeyg?!?!?!?! I always wondered what happened to him!

Yep,he talks about deleting his old account on his profile page and then not being able to get it back

http://infinitewhale.livejournal.com/profile

That's what I get for never looking at peoples' profiles...

That's what I get for never looking at peoples' profiles...

*lol* Never occurs to me either. Probably because I've written next to nothing on mine so mentally it only exists as "junk space" .

Same! *g* I added a few words to my bio recently so that I would have something there, but really I always rely on looking through peoples recent entries to find out more about them, and assume that people do the same with me. My bio is as bland as anything

Edited 2013-05-12 14:41 (UTC)

To be fair, I think Joss is joking when he includes Mecha-Dawn in the list of things readers liked. His humor doesn't come across well in print a lot of the time.

But yeah, his apologies usually come off as "I'm sorry you were offended" rather than "I'm sorry I did something that offended you."

His humor doesn't come across well in print a lot of the time.

True. I keep trying to remind myself of that but, sometimes - sometimes - a straight answer would be nice. Or rather, it's sort of "boy who cried wolf", I have no idea when to take him seriously or not. And I'm sure he knows it.

But yeah, his apologies usually come off as "I'm sorry you were offended" rather than "I'm sorry I did something that offended you."

Yes, exactly. Which, to be fair, is not something particular to Joss. (God knows my partner and I have done it with one another enough times.) It seems common to the "baby kings", people like Baz Luhrmann for example; or corporations when customers protest unwanted changes (Netflix is a recent example that comes to mind). It actually seems to me that it's become more pervasive generally over the last 40 years? "Do anything to seem like you're apologizing but not really just to get someone else off your back." Making an genuine apology seems to have been pushed to the side as some quaint, absurd notion.

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