frelling_tralk | (no subject)

Yeah, I know what you mean. I think there is definitely value in recognizing that complaints about tone are used as a way to dismiss minority viewpoints, but it seems as though it's become a free pass to be hostile and even sometimes downright cruel to people you disagree with. Verbally abusing someone and then claiming "tone argument!" when they call you out on it is NOT OKAY.

No one is saying you HAVE to be polite, but... it's not a bad idea to try, you know? "You catch more flies with honey" is a famous saying for a reason.

Just curious, where does this seem to come up?

I think there's confusion about there about the difference between screaming at people for making errors or being insensitive in ways they may not realise and constructively pointing out ways people can fix problematic things in posts or fics.

There's a whole range of things that are popular these days as a way of shutting down other peoles' voices, often in the guise of "but you're being ___ist!" It started as a way of educating people but I fear some bullies have latched onto it to serve their own ends.

At

ontd_feminism I suggested that the atmosphere was rather hostile to new posters who deserve more of a chance, and a mod responded with "We're not really fans of the tone argument around here" :P

:nods: And people always have to go to the extreme example if someone dares bring up that it's creating a hostile environment. A mod at said community is now saying that those comments concern her because it's not fair to expect people to not call others out for offensive comments, and yet no one said not to say anything. It's the way that people dogpile others that's especially shitty, as if they're trying to gain cool points at who can act the most outraged

Man even with apologies, it feels like the natural thing to say "I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings" or "I'm sorry if I offended you", but that will get you jumped all over because you're supposed to actually say "I'm sorry that I was hurtful", "I'm sorry that I was offensive". And you cannot expect new members to understand all this, but by golly won't they get leapt on by about 20 posters for a "faux apology" if they do dare to word something the wrong way

Right, like no one is saying that you have to hold someones hand and patiently explain things to them if it is causing you understandable frustration, but that's no excuse to swear at them, or call them names. Yet I see that happening time and tme again, and tone argument gets pulled out if someone dares take offense at being called a stupid loser or whatever else

If someone is trolling over and over then fine, or someone who refuses to take onboard what you are saying period then I understand losing your patience, but new posters who make mistakes in genuine ignorance seem to get treated in the same way, as if they are deliberately being hurtful and offensive. And at the comm I'm talking about, a new poster used the word skank in a different community, was told that it was an offensive word to use, she apologised, said she didn't realise, and wouldn't use it again. And in response she was berated by so many members for not apologising in the correct manner that she ended up leaving the comm. And I do think that half of the ~outrage is just an excuse to gang up on one person and get your special membership kudos

Exactly, I do appreciate that the tone argument can very easily be used to derail a legitimate grievance that someone may have, but now it seems to have almost become a free pass to talk to people however you want

Exactly - the claim of 'non-apology apology'.

The dog-piling by social justice types is infuriating. God forbid someone do something that is interpreted as intentionally bigotted.

*sigh*

Agreed.

I mean, I've been on the receiving end of a genuine "tone argument". After a particularly angry feminist post, a commenter derailed by bringing up how very mean I was being and how my message would be better if I were calmer. That? Textbook tone argument. (especially as the commenter was a man)

However, it often seems that people use the specter of a preemptive tone argument to justify being overtly hostile to...everybody. I understand anger in response to offense. However, there is a line between justified anger and abusiveness. Plus, it often feels like point-scoring as to who can come up with the most biting, snarky response to a person. I don't think anger should be competitive in such a fashion.

I'm not aware of the situation you are talking about there but I've had my own share of this lately on certain Smallville boards. A few weeks ago, I basically pointed out that a certain board had become hostile and unwelcoming (and frankly, this is no secret. People have been leaving this board in mass waves all year for LJ and Twitter because the environment has become downright hostile.) Anyway, I basically said in my post that I didn't think it was necessary to be so nasty to people and I had several bitchy responses that my comment was "off-topic." And you know...maybe it was. But it had to be said. I was so tired of having to tip toe around the fact that people were being nasty on that board. There's a reason why so many posters have abandoned the board in recent months. And I found it kind of hilarious that people were sniping at me about being "off-topic" because I dared to call attention to the behavior. It's like it's ok to act horrible to people but if someone dares to call you on that behavior then you are accused of starting trouble. It's maddening.

Your comment about point-scoring rings very true to me because, in my on-line experience, I have to say that some of the most hostile behaviour I have witnessed has come from self-called allies who seem to almost be trying to differentiate themselves and score extra points by jumping on someone (who screwed up in some manner) in the rudest/most sarcastic way they can.

And that's a long way from someone from the actual minority group in question losing their patience at being met with closed ears and "I'm offended that you're offended", which is how I originally understood the tone argument to work

Edited 2011-04-03 00:35 (UTC)

Fandoms do have a lot of people acting like jerks towards one another unfortunately :/

Edited 2011-04-03 00:27 (UTC)

I think what I've come to realize is that LIFE has a lot of people acting like jerks towards one another and fandoms are just an exaggerated version of that. :(

Hmmm yes. I can imagine.

I have been running across especially strident and rigid ranters a lot recently. I think the style comes in and out of vogue a bit.

"And in response she was berated by so many members for not apologising in the correct manner that she ended up leaving the comm. "

Oh fuck yeah. The people that won't let others apologize drive me nuts. A little coaching may be in line in some cases, but if someone takes a conciliatory tone and you just bitch them out for falling short it really is counter productive in getting the message across. Learned helplessness and all that.

And in a comm about feminism you would think that it would matter more to be inclusive and women feel they are being given a voice, instead of many members recently admitting that they feel afraid to contribute anything in case they make a slip-up in not understanding the correct jargon to use.

In the example that frustrated me, the poster (who was only 16 no less) used the word skank in another comm, apologised when it was pointed out to her that it's a misogynistic insult, and joined

ontd_feminism to learn more. After being met with this attack in the welcome post (http://community.livejournal.com/ontd_feminism/516113.html?thread=36021521#t36021521) she ended up leaving the comm in the end. So if the ultimate goal is to drive away any woman that doesn't have a college education and is well-versed in women's studies, then job well done I guess?

What's this about?

There are a lot of jerks on the planet.

I just visited that feminism comm's info page and I was disgusted. Some of the stuff there looked like bigotry to me and it seemed to me that there was a general bullshit attitude. "Feminism" of that sort isn't helping.

Behaving in a civilized manner is always called for unless you're dealing with someone who has personally wronged you (and even then there are limits). Just because someone has a legit grievance with society or whatever doesn't justify them acting like an asshole. There's quite enough of people treating each other like shit in the world without encouraging more of it. And using victim status to justify treating one's fellow human beings like shit is just pathtic. And I say that as somebody who knows what it's like to be a victim.

["Behaving in a civilized manner is always called for unless you're dealing with someone who has personally wronged you"]

Confronting people who have behaved in a bigoted manner or have done some other sort of wrong is certainly ok, but that doesn't justify calling everything bigotry.

["At ontd_feminism I suggested that the atmosphere was rather hostile to new posters"]

Judging by their info page I'm not surprised the atmosphere is hostile.

["Man even with apologies, it feels like the natural thing to say "I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings" or "I'm sorry if I offended you", but that will get you jumped all over because you're supposed to actually say "I'm sorry that I was hurtful", "I'm sorry that I was offensive". And you cannot expect new members to understand all this, but by golly won't they get leapt on by about 20 posters for a "faux apology" if they do dare to word something the wrong way"]

Jeez, that's totally unreasonable. Correct way to appologize? Thought police!

["After being met with this attack in the welcome post (http://community.livejournal.com/ontd_feminism/516113.html?thread=36021521#t36021521)"]

I can't see the post. Can you tell me the gist of it?

Was she given out to over ways apologizing on the feminist comm or elsewhere?

Ok, I know now, having read the other comments.

I posted on a forum once where people were allowed to freely be aggressive as they chose and it wasn't pleasant (ie things got fucking vicious). Human beings without restraint are not very likable.

Oh they posted to say hi and they've just joined the comm, and someone immediately responded with "Hopefully you've learned why it's bad to call women skanks". And then it started this huuuuge discussion with multiple people berating her for it. I don't know why it was even brought up to be honest, because the whole thing happened in another comm completely, and she'd already said that she wouldn't be using that insult again

And sorry, I was sure that it was unlocked when I linked it. Perhaps it's been locked since

Meh I'm thinking of leaving the comm now. I liked it because the articles being posted were pretty interesting, and it's nice to have an active comm on my flist when LJ is so quiet these days, but I really don't care for the bullying attitudes of many of the members

Sounds like a comm to dump. This DDOS attack business is worrying me.