frelling_tralk | (no subject)

Current Mood: curious

Entry tags:

angel,
poll

(no subject)

10 episodes of Angel that show how it was more than Buffy redux”

Episodes listed are To Shanshu In L.A from season 1, Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been from season 2, Fredless, Birthday, Waiting In The Wings, AND Forgiving from season 3, Soulless from season 4, and finally Smile Time, A Hole In The World, and Not Fade Away from season 5.

To me that that list is seriously failing when it comes to season 2, what about episodes like Darla and Reunion?!? Home from season 4 also deserves a mention IMO, as well as You're Welcome from season 5. Fredless is a cute episode and all, but is it really comparable to the best episodes of the series?

The writer of the article talks about season 3 clearly being the overall best season, "As with Buffy, fans of Angel argue over which is the best season. Is it the second, which properly begins the larger story and gives it scope? The fifth, which wraps up that story with some hard but inspiring lessons? Or the third, which… okay, there shouldn’t really be any contest here. It’s the third. Most of Whedon’s top-shelf writers were heavily involved in season three (including Greenwalt, Minear, Noxon, and Fury), as the plotting became more complex and sophisticated, with the characters making crucial decisions that didn’t always pan out. Most importantly, the third season properly introduces Fred, who soon becomes the clever, sunny, quirky fan favourite

I don't remember season 3 being a particular fan favourite, but then I was thinking about it and I'm not sure that Angel does have universally (well more or less) agreed "best seasons" like Buffy does? Some people really love season 4 and the heavy serialisation there, while some absolutely hate it for what it does to Cordelia's character. Some really love the darker moments of season 3 with Holtz and Wesley, but then I saw a lot of dislike for "Soap Opera elements" at the time when season 3 was first airing, the Angel/Cordelia romance, dorky Angel, and the birth of Conner were by no means universally popular. With Buffy it's generally pretty easy to point to seasons 2, 3, and 5 as the clear favourites, but every Angel season seems to get a LOT of debate between love or hate from what I've seen.

To go off on a tangent for a moment, it seems like most of the hate for season 4 is because of Cordelia's character being lost that year, but I'd argue that already started happening in season 3. The first half of season 3 was great for portraying a more mature Cordelia, but the more they pushed the Angel/Cordelia romance, the more they started writing Cordelia as a Saint and Mother figure for Conner which just didn't work IMO and rang really false. Again at the time I remember a ton of controversy at how Cordelia was being written, especially all the fan jokes on the season 3 finale when she's carried off to the Heavens with twinkly lights, so it's interesting that season 4 takes all the blame for "ruining her character". Technically season 4 was not Cordelia any more, so there's actually more of a justification for the writing of her that year, in comparison to the saintly blonde that Double Or Nothing introduced to us. I remember speculation at the time was that it was down to David Greenwalt getting too carried away with seeing Cordelia as perfect, but I'm wondering now if it was more about fast-tracking Cordelia character arc to becoming a higher being, and thus wrapping up her journey? I remember at the end of season 4 that Joss said something to that effect of having nowhere else to take Cordelia's character at that point

It seemed that Joss allowed behind the scenes drama to affect the writing for Cordelia in quite negative ways unfortunately. I've noticed that posters on

ohnotheydidnt get super-defensive if you imply that the treatment of Charisma was about anything other than Joss firing her for getting pregnant, but I would argue there were a lot of weird vibes in season 3 as well, there was definitely speculation at the time as to whether the Ascension was a way of writing Cordelia out. It's just a shame that Joss allowed whatever BTS drama there was to make its way onto the writing of the character

And this entry is starting to get really O/T, so maybe I should stop there :P But here's a poll anyway for favourite Angel season!

[Poll #2017986]

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I don't think I have a favorite season. Every year it seemed like there were things I liked juxtaposed against things I really didn't. I'd say... 2.5 to 3.5? Can you start and end mid-way through a season? :P I never enjoyed Angel like BTVS but at the same time it never angered me like Buffy.

Most importantly, the third season properly introduces Fred, who soon becomes the clever, sunny, quirky fan favourite

Yeah, I suspect the writer is showing a little bias there. I wouldn't call Fred a fan favorite, tbh. For a long time, my feel of other folks was she was like Tara. Most people liked her or didn't mind her (except when she came between Gunn and Wes), but not many I saw were 'fav character!' or anything.

Random possibly unpopular opinion... S5 doesn't match the show to me. It sticks out and feels like something the writers tacked on as an allegory for them compromising with the WB than an organic Angel story. To me, the show was always about finding your place in the world, inner peace and family. S5 is kinda the opposite. While I enjoy some stuff in S5 like TGIQ, it feels like it doesn't count. I'm not all 'not canon!' about it, but I have this unbidden mental switch-off that the whole 'verse ends with Chosen/Home.

Every year it seemed like there were things I liked juxtaposed against things I really didn't.

I'd say those are my thoughts as well, it seemed like they had some really amazing emotional stakes and incredible episodes planned out for seasons 2-4 with the big arc stuff, but every season was also very inconsistent when it came to handling the filler episodes in between. I can't say that any season was an unproblematic fav for me in the say that some of my fav seasons of Buffy are, just because I can always find so much to nitpick each year. As I said above, I think that it would have really benefited from shorter seasons, just because there were certain points in every season where they didn't seem to know what to do to fill up the space. Except maybe season 4, ironically the most unpopular season, but there wasn't a run of irrelevant stuff there in the same way as they seemed very sure of where they were taking the story that year and kept building on that

And yeah I don't know about Fred, some people really loved her of course, but it always seemed like just as many people found her annoying and Mary-Sue'ish? Maybe her tragic death caused people to look back more favourably on her I guess, but she was never an obvious fan fav the way that characters like Spike and Willow were on Buffy I wouldn't have thought. If anything I thought that Cordelia was the more popular female lead, but maybe I'm not very in tune with the Ats fandom

And hmm I do remember at the time that some Angel fans didn't love season 5, and maybe my flist is a biased sample lol as there are a lot of Spike fans voting, but it worked for me. It definitely got a bit corporate that year in comparison to how Angel usually did things, but I thought they made good use of that tonal shift, emphasising how off-balance even the characters themselves were with their new arrangement. I can see what you're saying though, you can definitely read Joss's feelings on compromising himself in his dealings with the higher-ups into it, and that's arguably not very relevant to what they originally interestested in exploring with Angel. It does feel like the most Joss season of all the seasons on Ats, I remember David Fury commenting that he and Jeffrey Bell had originally planned the season out differently, but then Joss came in and rewrote it all. Still ultimately they created an interesting season out of it IMHO, and they did get back to the original mission statement of the show in the end when Angel rejects the power offered and goes back to being the hero working against ~the man~

Edited 2015-07-27 20:54 (UTC)

If anything I thought that Cordelia was the more popular female lead, but maybe I'm not very in tune with the Ats fandom

That was my take on it. It could just be the taken-for-granted aspect of it. From 1 to the beginning of 4, she was the female lead and it seems to be a common thing for people to assume others are going to love them, so they focus on the Fred or the Willow.

Still ultimately they created an interesting season out of it IMHO

Of, definitely. Mentally I can say this was interesting or that was definitely needed for the character, but emotionally... I just really feel like I'm seeing Joss talking. Like with the Sparmony, I'm like "OK, Joss, whatever you say." At the same time, I think Spike as a character needs something like Damage. Not that he needed his hands cut off, of course, but it was good to see him not shirk things off.

So yeah, it jars me, but it's still the best iteration of the 'compromise' and it destroying things theme he's done. Now if he'd just stop doing it over and over and over again...

Ooh yes, I was definitely not a fan of Sparmony, and you've reminded me that I did not always appreciate how much Spike was being written as the irritating little brother early on, the second half of that season was a big step-up in that respect as Spike and Angel seemed more like equal partners in episodes like A Hole In The World. And Damage was a great episode for Spike's character too of course, but there were certainly times early on when I felt like he was there more as Angel's foil, rather than being written as the character we knew from Buffy

Well it's kinda like s4 of Buffy in that way, Spike wise. That the writers wrote Spike as a stand in for Cordelia. So more snarky and funny, rather than as a dramatic character. It's only when they moved on from that, that they let them see the character as himself, rather than as a a replacement for a particular trope.

/S5 doesn't match the show to me/ - Yes, there's a great shift in tone and whatnot (much more than the first two lighter seasons vs season three and four being much darker), it feels kind of weirdly separated and not representative which is why I found it kind of a strange choice.

I don't think the tone shifted that much, but S5 is kind of an abandonment of the core of the show. To this day Whedon claims AtS was about redemption and I'm not sure how that squares with AtS S5 that ends with a guy starting a demon war in the middle of a densely populated city.

I never thought AtS (or BTVS) was really about redemption, mind you, but coming to terms with who you are and what you've done and like I said, finding a place in the world. A family. That's all dropped in S5, too, anyway. Angel was always grimdark, Batman-esque writing (which gives it the faux-"adult" feel), but S5 is ultimately just bleak.

/AtS S5 that ends with a guy starting a demon war in the middle of a densely populated city/ - Well, I thought the ending was in line with the famous quote “If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do.”
If there is no greater scheme and no reward for good deeds, if we are nothing but cogs in the great machine of caos, ever more so we must search for our own purpose in life: it is what we choose to do with our own life that gives meaning to it. Even if we cannot win, all the more we must try.
Or, again, in the words of Joss Whedon: "I believe that the only reality is how we treat each other; that morality comes from the absence of any grander scheme, not from the presence of any grander scheme." Which BTW really appeals to the atheist in me and finds echoes in the whole Angel fighting with Spike over which vampire with the soul is the one the Shanshu prophecy really refers to, only for Angel to sign away the prophecy in the end in a great character arc, showing that he is truly a hero and what he does he isn't doing it in order to obtain some kind of reward but because it's the right thing to do.
What irritates me about season 5 is that there are too many one-shot episodes and interesting things that could be developed into a whole arc (Wesley and Connor regaining their memory in Origin, Cordy's comeback in You're Welcome) only get the space of a single episode. Illyria's arc, though terrific, could have done with much more time too. It feels disloyal to the rest of Ats, choosing this particular season as the best, it's like saying that, at its best, Ats was nothing more than a list of unfulfilled possibilities.
Also, I can't believe neither Fred nor Gunn nor Lorne got to know the truth about the memories that Angel took from them. (And I'm still bitter about Eve replacing Lilah...)
Also, while season 5 is dark I don't think it's necessarily the darkest one (what about season 4 or 5?), to me the last season is more of a weird merge of fake comedic cues, mostly during the first part of the series (Angel and Spike's rivalry, puppets, Harmony), and serious ones during the second part. It's just like "The Girl in Question": half of it we're following Angel and Spike in their surreal trip to Rome, fighting over Buffy and dealing with the parallel branch of W&H (cue all the jokes), the other half there's the grimness of Wesley and Illyria and Fred's parents. It's jarring.

Edited 2015-07-31 21:00 (UTC)

On one hand I agree, but like I said, I don't think Angel was ever about redemption. That was Joss talking, even after S5. In fact, the whole redemption/reward angle is one of the reasons Angel and the character never appealed much to me. For one, Angel=/=Angelus. For another I don't agree with the idea that there is some secret number you can hit where good balances out bad. You have to do the things you do because you believe they're right, not because of the thought of reward. S4's retcon sort of fixes that in revealing the whole redemption path was just a carrot to dangle to get Angel to do what the PTB wanted.

The whole redemption stuff on AtS and the way it sort of contrasts to BTVS has always been a problem for me. Mostly because on AtS they never ask/answer the question of why any of them get to be redeemed when others, who've done less, don't.

Like I said, Angel was really about small victories to me, finding a family and a home and fighting for them. Angel trying to find a place in the world he doesn't (at the time) have a connection to. S5 is really just a destruction of that.

Well, to me it's not all so black and white. You see, I'm Italian and if anything else, Angel reminds me of a character from one of the most famous Italian novels (if not the most famous), Alessandro Manzoni's I promessi sposi (The Betrothed). This character is the Innominato (the Unnamed) and he used to be this really evil guy only to find god halfway thought the novel and undergoing a radical change, going from Big Bad to a force of good in search of redemption. Angel does the same thing: unlike Spike, he is not one for half measures, he is either the ultimate evil (Angelus) or a great hero. It may well be that the similarities in Angel and the Innominato's journey is due to the Catholics origins of both characters. And the aforementioned search for redemption, which is a very Chaotic thing and no, you're right, there isn't a "secret number you can hit where good balances out bad", that's the point of atonement, you're never really done with it, that's why the Shanshu prophecy doesn't really matter in the end and even defeats the purpose, I mean, it helped Angel find hope at the beginning of his journey but now he is wiser and tougher and he doesn't need that crutch any more. To me that's character development.
Anyway, what I meant to say, Angel is still acting as this grandiose hero in season 5. If he can't beat W&H he'll still try to bring the house down with him inside, no half-measures. Which is something I find to be really coherent with his character.

I also think the redemption theme finds some resonance in season 5, only it's mostly through Spike, who, as he always does, acts like a mirror to Angel's character. Think about "Soul Purpose", with Lindsey taking on Doyle's name in an attempt to convince Spike that he is the one mentioned in the Shanshu Prophecy and him and Spike basically reacting the plot of the pilot of Ats. Which, yes, it's in stark contrast with Angel's situation in the first half of the series, who's now helping the helpless on a large scale and in a more detached way, no longer on a down to heart/one by one approach, and he's a bit adrift, without Connor, surrounded by friends with false memories and being without Cordelia and having lost his link to the PTB (the real ones, not Jasmine). A link he will regain in You're Welcome, which will lead to Angel finding his purpose again and to NFA.

And wow, the more I think about season 5 the more I discover a fondness for it I didn't suspect I had stored in me. Must be the Devil's Advocate in me. More likely, I'm just feeling really nostalgic for Ats, I really have to do a rewatch sooner rather than later. But, yes, season 3/4 are still my favorite ones... No, scratch that, I just found out why picking a favorite season is so hard: it's exactly because Angel's journey is so interconnected through the seasons. Something gets foreshadowed in one season only to reach it's development in another, picking one means wronging the other ones. It's like choosing one of your hands over the other: how can you do that? :D

Edited 2015-08-01 09:05 (UTC)

I might agree, except that's not really a comparison. Choosing to switch sides isn't what Angel does. He doesn't see the light. It's almost literally two different people. I know people quantify Angelus as Angel's ID, but even in that case, it's still just that. It might be a part of him, but there's still the part that says no, and that's an equal part as well.

Angel does make grandiose decisions throughout the show...for a person. The whole foothold in the world thing. Angel acknowledges what they're about to do really doesn't matter and won't affect anything. Ultimately, it doesn't accomplish anything. It's nothing more than an F-U. He can't make the decision for the others (though they agree), but he does for the thousands of residents who are about to have their lives ruined/ended in the war.

I'm not saying it's good or bad, mind you, just saying S5 as a whole doesn't fit with any of the overall themes of 1-4.

/but there's still the part that says no, and that's an equal part as well/ - Mm? I'm not sure I get what you mean... Do you mind explaining me this bit in other words?

/It's nothing more than an F-U. / - But what a great one! :D :D
Like Gunn says in ELG's Temps Perdu talking about what happened at W&H: “I lost my integrity, Wes lost his sanity, and Fred lost her life.” Season 5 in a nutshell, isn't it? And dammit if W&H don't deserve some retribution for that... ;)

Also, ah, you mean that by getting all those people in L.A. potentially killed in the crossfire with his fight with W&H it's evident that Angel doesn't care about civilian population as he should if he was going to do the redemption thing. I get it now. *nods* But what about the Circle of the Black Thorn's apocalyptic plans? If left undisturbed wouldn't the death toll be higher?

As for Angelus and Angel being two different people, personally I'd say yes and no. After all, they're all the product of the culture of Liam's time, in a way (the way he relates to women for one thing, plus his being controlling, selfish sometimes, manipulative too).

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only