I'm not letting you insult me as the final word. So, I'll respond and if you want, that can be the last word.
I selected the Buffy examples because it was Buffy doing some crappy things with very good intentions borne out a desire to protect and her own trauma. Yes, Buffy lied to everyone about their past tormentor/assaulter Angel was back. However, she did so out of a desire to protect Angel even though Angel wasn't in serious danger from the gang (and zero danger from any non-Xander person). For that, she deserves compassion for the lies, recklessness with Sunnydale students' lives in Beauty and Beasts, and the personal betrayal of certainly not telling Giles that Angel was back. The same is true with Wesley. He took Connor in a desperate effort to protect Connor and protect Angel from murdering his son. For that, he deserves compassion and understanding.
The difference between the two is that Wesley's betrayal went horribly and Buffy's ended up going fine. However, you argued that "the whole thing played like he knew what he was getting into even if it didn't go pear-shaped", putting down the gauntlet to judge Wesley's choices independent of the end.
Both actions are far afield from Giles poisoning Buffy....to keep his job. Unlike Buffy and Wesley, Giles betrayed Buffy out of pure self-interest. Giles wasn't out to protect anyone from incipient harm. Moreover, Giles poisoned Buffy with every intent to throw her powerless body in a house to fight a crazy vampire. Meanwhile, Wesley intended to take Connor somewhere safe and raise him with kindness.
Moreover, Giles DID expect a second chance. He said:
GILES You have to listen to me. Because I have told you this, the test is invalidated. You'll be safe, I promise. Whatever I have to do, to deal with Kralik and to win back your trust -
Giles says this after he had a chance to explain his version of events to Buffy. Then, Giles pre-supposes that he's going to embark on some path (however difficult and demanding) to repair to his relationship with Buffy and have a second chance. Giles knew that he what he did was awful and he was willing to deal with Kralik and do whatever it takes to get a second chance, but it was all the assumption that there was a path forward with Buffy. He never acts like Buffy's trust isn't unwinnable or like they're not going to work together to take down Kralik or tell off Quentin and he should slink off the court. And Giles proceeds in his relationship with Buffy with utter confidence right from the next episode on.
Moreover, I think Buffy absolutely did the right thing to forgive Giles. Giles already lost the love of his life, was tortured for hours, and devoted lots of time and resources to helping Buffy. As vile as his actions were, I think it's wonderfully forgiving that Buffy took all that into account to forgive Giles. Moreover by forgiving Giles and not shutting him out, Buffy got to continue to enjoy the resources of a trained multi-lingual adult Watcher with means. I think Giles should have helped her more but Buffy really would be hurt in her mission without Giles going forward.
As for Angel shutting Wesley out, Angel should have been absolutely up a creek (or stuck in a sea as the case may be) and his gang should have totally failed without Wesley. However, they all profited off how Wesley arrived as a product of an abusive childhood who borders on masochism who has an unfortunate love for Angel/Fred/Cordelia so they could continue getting Wesley's help even though they shut him out and treated him like crap. If AI was dealing with someone with slightly higher self-esteem or expectations from life, Wesley would have just continued his solo evil-fighting mission and told them to all piss off.
no subject
I selected the Buffy examples because it was Buffy doing some crappy things with very good intentions borne out a desire to protect and her own trauma. Yes, Buffy lied to everyone about their past tormentor/assaulter Angel was back. However, she did so out of a desire to protect Angel even though Angel wasn't in serious danger from the gang (and zero danger from any non-Xander person). For that, she deserves compassion for the lies, recklessness with Sunnydale students' lives in Beauty and Beasts, and the personal betrayal of certainly not telling Giles that Angel was back. The same is true with Wesley. He took Connor in a desperate effort to protect Connor and protect Angel from murdering his son. For that, he deserves compassion and understanding.
The difference between the two is that Wesley's betrayal went horribly and Buffy's ended up going fine. However, you argued that "the whole thing played like he knew what he was getting into even if it didn't go pear-shaped", putting down the gauntlet to judge Wesley's choices independent of the end.
Both actions are far afield from Giles poisoning Buffy....to keep his job. Unlike Buffy and Wesley, Giles betrayed Buffy out of pure self-interest. Giles wasn't out to protect anyone from incipient harm. Moreover, Giles poisoned Buffy with every intent to throw her powerless body in a house to fight a crazy vampire. Meanwhile, Wesley intended to take Connor somewhere safe and raise him with kindness.
Moreover, Giles DID expect a second chance. He said:
GILES
You have to listen to me. Because I have told you this, the test is invalidated. You'll be safe, I promise.
Whatever I have to do, to deal with Kralik and to win back your trust -
Giles says this after he had a chance to explain his version of events to Buffy. Then, Giles pre-supposes that he's going to embark on some path (however difficult and demanding) to repair to his relationship with Buffy and have a second chance. Giles knew that he what he did was awful and he was willing to deal with Kralik and do whatever it takes to get a second chance, but it was all the assumption that there was a path forward with Buffy. He never acts like Buffy's trust isn't unwinnable or like they're not going to work together to take down Kralik or tell off Quentin and he should slink off the court. And Giles proceeds in his relationship with Buffy with utter confidence right from the next episode on.
Moreover, I think Buffy absolutely did the right thing to forgive Giles. Giles already lost the love of his life, was tortured for hours, and devoted lots of time and resources to helping Buffy. As vile as his actions were, I think it's wonderfully forgiving that Buffy took all that into account to forgive Giles. Moreover by forgiving Giles and not shutting him out, Buffy got to continue to enjoy the resources of a trained multi-lingual adult Watcher with means. I think Giles should have helped her more but Buffy really would be hurt in her mission without Giles going forward.
As for Angel shutting Wesley out, Angel should have been absolutely up a creek (or stuck in a sea as the case may be) and his gang should have totally failed without Wesley. However, they all profited off how Wesley arrived as a product of an abusive childhood who borders on masochism who has an unfortunate love for Angel/Fred/Cordelia so they could continue getting Wesley's help even though they shut him out and treated him like crap. If AI was dealing with someone with slightly higher self-esteem or expectations from life, Wesley would have just continued his solo evil-fighting mission and told them to all piss off.