I'm puzzled by fans who explain Xander's reactions to Buffy/Angel in S1-2 mostly on the basis of "he hates vampires because of Jesse" and dismiss/whitewash his jealousy. Jesse was a "Gotcha!" device; I don't think we're supposed to see him as important to the narrative? I think people want to excuse Xander, because I saw a very jealous guy. (I loathe jealousy, it's an attempt to control someone else's behavior: See Moulin Rouge.)
used by fandom as a example of how unfair Buffy is to reject nice guy Xander and cry about the bad guys that she's dating to him!
People do that anyway (Xander fans and/or Spike haters). Buffy just CANNOT win no matter what she does. I loathe the idea anyone can or should "love" someone else because they "deserve" it, as if love was a prize to be handed out.
I can actually feel for Xander a lot of times even when I think he's a dick; I like him in S4, S5 & S7 but I wouldn't describe him as a "nice guy" overall. The truly nice people I've known IRL wouldn't think to pull some of the shit Xander does. He can be nice, he can be decent, he can be a good friend AND he can be horrible. He's human. It makes him interesting, but not someone I'd want to know IRL.
overall their interaction was more just that of buddies if that makes sense?
Definitely. That line in SR is another "great moment in Xander WTF-ery" In PG? She calls him "one of the girls" but Willow's her true girl friend, Willow's the one who wants details about kissage. Which has a dark side: Willow living vicariously through Buffy. So Xander and Willow are really on opposite sides of the fence with Buffy in the middle. How they each feel about her and Angel has very little to do with Buffy herself in actuality. This is another reason why S6 and the SG neglect of Buffy's emotional state is hard to watch and maybe OTT at times but not terribly so. Or in Intervention. they say they need the really real Buffy but they still want the 'Bot at some level. (And fandom tends to repeat all of these tendencies. *hugs Buffy)
then you have an automatic "don't put yourself down, you're not like that at all" kind of response?
I think in a way it comes down to Joss/ME going for the emotional punch over logic as well as needing AB & C to happen (ie Riley leaving.Which could have been accomplished just fine without Xander in ITW, but then they really had to go for broke in humiliating Buffy. Because finding her boyfriend with vamp whores (thanks, Spike) and being blamed by him for his behavior with everything going on in Buffy's life is just not enough emotional torture, apparently.
And I really don't remember a lot of what you describe from S3. It is bad that Faith's attempted rape of Xander isn't handled with any seriousness, but then again is it really acknowledged that Faith raped/violated Riley and Buffy in WAY? Riley doesn't seem fussed by it, unlike Buffy. Because guys are unrapeable in our culture I guess.
Then there's Anya stripping down in THLOD
I HATE the fact that Anya's assertive sexuality is played as one big joke, although her stripping in Xander's basement is pretty squicky. And that she has to be punished and tamed/domesticated, only to be killed at the end with no real resolution of her relationship with Xander.
Buffy making the crack in ITW that Xander has no room to talk about her and Riley's relationship when he lets Anya follow him around like a puppy and treats her as a convienience.
Paging Season 6. Oh, Buffy.
because he doesn't want to get as serious as she does
In theory he doesn't want to turn into his father but in his hallucinations in HB it comes off as Anya's fault for being a bitter nagging shrew and Xander is the poor henpecked shlub. then for Xander to never really apologize or dealt with the fact that yes, he broke HER heart, ruined her life, took away friends, home, shared income etc. What woman in that situation wouldn't wish for a bit of revenge? She's just hurting. And I've never been able to follow the arguments as to why he was right to dump her; maybe she should have dumped his sorry ass. Weirdly enough, they actually had one of the longest relationships on the show. They could be adorable together a lot of the time.
no subject
used by fandom as a example of how unfair Buffy is to reject nice guy Xander and cry about the bad guys that she's dating to him!
People do that anyway (Xander fans and/or Spike haters). Buffy just CANNOT win no matter what she does. I loathe the idea anyone can or should "love" someone else because they "deserve" it, as if love was a prize to be handed out.
I can actually feel for Xander a lot of times even when I think he's a dick; I like him in S4, S5 & S7 but I wouldn't describe him as a "nice guy" overall. The truly nice people I've known IRL wouldn't think to pull some of the shit Xander does. He can be nice, he can be decent, he can be a good friend AND he can be horrible. He's human. It makes him interesting, but not someone I'd want to know IRL.
overall their interaction was more just that of buddies if that makes sense?
Definitely. That line in SR is another "great moment in Xander WTF-ery" In PG? She calls him "one of the girls" but Willow's her true girl friend, Willow's the one who wants details about kissage. Which has a dark side: Willow living vicariously through Buffy. So Xander and Willow are really on opposite sides of the fence with Buffy in the middle. How they each feel about her and Angel has very little to do with Buffy herself in actuality. This is another reason why S6 and the SG neglect of Buffy's emotional state is hard to watch and maybe OTT at times but not terribly so. Or in Intervention. they say they need the really real Buffy but they still want the 'Bot at some level. (And fandom tends to repeat all of these tendencies. *hugs Buffy)
then you have an automatic "don't put yourself down, you're not like that at all" kind of response?
I think in a way it comes down to Joss/ME going for the emotional punch over logic as well as needing AB & C to happen (ie Riley leaving.Which could have been accomplished just fine without Xander in ITW, but then they really had to go for broke in humiliating Buffy. Because finding her boyfriend with vamp whores (thanks, Spike) and being blamed by him for his behavior with everything going on in Buffy's life is just not enough emotional torture, apparently.
And I really don't remember a lot of what you describe from S3. It is bad that Faith's attempted rape of Xander isn't handled with any seriousness, but then again is it really acknowledged that Faith raped/violated Riley and Buffy in WAY? Riley doesn't seem fussed by it, unlike Buffy. Because guys are unrapeable in our culture I guess.
Then there's Anya stripping down in THLOD
I HATE the fact that Anya's assertive sexuality is played as one big joke, although her stripping in Xander's basement is pretty squicky. And that she has to be punished and tamed/domesticated, only to be killed at the end with no real resolution of her relationship with Xander.
Buffy making the crack in ITW that Xander has no room to talk about her and Riley's relationship when he lets Anya follow him around like a puppy and treats her as a convienience.
Paging Season 6. Oh, Buffy.
because he doesn't want to get as serious as she does
In theory he doesn't want to turn into his father but in his hallucinations in HB it comes off as Anya's fault for being a bitter nagging shrew and Xander is the poor henpecked shlub. then for Xander to never really apologize or dealt with the fact that yes, he broke HER heart, ruined her life, took away friends, home, shared income etc. What woman in that situation wouldn't wish for a bit of revenge? She's just hurting. And I've never been able to follow the arguments as to why he was right to dump her; maybe she should have dumped his sorry ass. Weirdly enough, they actually had one of the longest relationships on the show. They could be adorable together a lot of the time.